63. Elevated Leadership Series: How to make internal career moves, build confidence, and find fulfillment

PATRICIA:
Hi, everyone. It's so great to see you today. You'll notice that today we actually have two co-hosts. It's me and Julianna. Julianna, do you want to give a very quick intro?

JULIANNA: Yeah, so I'm Julianna Yau-Yorgan. I am a workplace strategist. And for today's discussion, I'll be focusing on some practical strategies for navigating workplace relationships and office politics.

PATRICIA: Yeah. And so Julianna and I are getting together because we have two different areas that we focus on. And so while she's focusing on the relationship dynamics and then the office politics as part of her strategic execution, today I'm going to be focusing on emotional intelligence strategies. And the focus is to help you to lead with authenticity, to build trust, and also to inspire peak performance. So before we get into today's topic, which let me give you a sneak peek. Today's topic is going to be internal career change. So there's been so much talk lately about, you know, should I make a move within my company? Should I move out of my company? I've got so many options. Why don't I look at what's going on, you know, in the current environment as opposed to starting fresh. And so that's the topic we're going to cover today from both of those angles. But first, you might be wondering why there's two co-hosts today. Do you want to share a little bit about our story?

JULIANNA: Yeah, so Patricia and I met because we are both coaches with our own podcasts. And one of the things about being an independent coach is that it gets a little bit lonely. So we started keeping in touch, just talking about business and what we're seeing in our coaching practices. And I think we found that Although we help a lot of the same people, we do it in a very different way. And what really stood out for me is that thinking back to when I was in corporate, I needed someone like Patricia. So I was really strong on the execution, the strategy. I knew the things I had to do. But when I got stuck, it was more around not necessarily the emotional intelligence piece, but wrapping that around personal growth from the inside, which Patricia is so amazing at. And we kind of got to talking about how even though we help the same type of people, we do it in a very different way and we kind of complement our clients in a different way.

PATRICIA: Yeah, I remember the first time that we talked, I was like, oh, she's like the other side of me, the part that I'm missing, you know, that piece of like, move this chest piece to this space, and then this will happen, like those types of pieces where you get very clear to do steps, like here's the next step, if this isn't working, do this and do that, right? Those are the pieces that sometimes I'm like, ooh, I can help you show up a certain way. I can help you, you know, do those types of things. But when it comes to like, OK, some of the clients will be like, OK, now tell me what to do. Who do I talk to or where do I go? And I'm like, oh, that's a different you know, that's a different space. And so this is where this is where Julianna comes in. And I'm so excited that we'll have our two perspectives as we talk about different topics.

JULIANNA: For sure. And I had that same type of revelation to where it's like, I know the things to do, but for some reason I'm not doing them. And I needed somebody like Patricia to kind of help me figure out, okay, what's blocking me from doing the things I know I need to do.

PATRICIA: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I love that we both have podcasts. So the beautiful thing is that if you're listening to this on The Uncommon Career, you'll also be able to catch it and other episodes that are from Julianna with all of her expertise on her podcast. Do you want to share a little bit about yours? Because I know I just mentioned mine.

JULIANNA: For sure. So you may be listening on my podcast, Daring to Succeed. This might be a longer episode than you're used to, but I guarantee you it will be so worth it.

PATRICIA: Awesome. Okay. So now that we've got this piece, this co-hosted introduction, let's jump into today's topic.

JULIANNA: Yeah. So Like you said earlier with your sneak peek, we're seeing a lot on both of our client sides that there's a lot of discussion about internal career change, which I think is really, it makes a lot of sense right now because we've just come off of a year of a really, really saturated job market where it's really hard to switch companies, get into a new company. I don't know, Patricia, if you're seeing the same thing, but people are kind of readjusting their plans to see if they can stay within their company and maybe do something different or finally work towards that promotion that they've been kind of eyeballing for a while.

PATRICIA: Yeah, absolutely. So I've seen, I've seen that there's both like in perception and reality, right? There's the reality of, yes, there's been a lot of layoffs. You know, the economy isn't in a great space. I do think people are still hiring, but because of the way it's happened and because of how HR has been, you know, digitize like to the max through AI and the ATS and blah, blah, blah, and all these things, right? The perception is that it's so much more difficult to get a job than it actually is because we assume those old, right? And I think you and I were talking about like those old methods of like, you do your resume and you apply and then you get an interview and that's just not the way that that happens anymore. And so I think because of that, like you said, things are shifting to like the internal search versus an external search thinking, okay, let's try this strategy and see if that can get us a better outcome.

JULIANNA: Yeah, for sure. And I think even on the employer side, it's been a little weird because before all those layoffs happened, there was a lack of talent available. So coming off of the pandemic, we saw a lot of people retire early or decide, you know what, life is too precious for me to be slaving away at a job I don't like, so going to take a bit of a break. So we kind of swung from everything was kind of okay to a bunch of people decided, I'm not working anymore, or I'm not working right now to then an absolute flood of amazing talent from all those layoffs. And I think we're finally kind of adjusting back to a healthier balance of people trying to fill positions and people looking for work.

PATRICIA: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And one of those options is to look internally. And I think that's where, you know, I think that's where folks are turning to right now. And, you know, both of us work on career change and career transition from those different aspects. But what I've noticed is previously I would have more folks saying, I need to get a different job at a different location in even a different industry, maybe an entirely new career. What I'm hearing more and more now is I need help figuring out how to move up within my organization. Is that the same for you?

JULIANNA: Most of the people I'm working with are actually the types that you had mentioned earlier, where they're looking for complete change. So a lot of folks moving from, let's say, military, nursing, or even HR talent acquisition type roles into project management roles or people who are actually leaving leadership positions because they're so burnt out and looking for something else senior where they can still contribute to the same level, not necessarily in terms of what the company expects of them, but the contribution that they want to make. Like they still want to make a difference in their colleagues work life. They're just kind of like, I need a break from leadership right now.

PATRICIA: Yeah, definitely. So how, where do you think that that's that like internal career change tends to come up most for you?

JULIANNA: Yeah, I think a lot of people just especially if they've been in the workplace for a really long time, it can get a little bit monotonous. There are some people who love being that specialist, they want to learn a role, be really good at it and just not have to kind of learn a bunch of new things that they didn't have any interest in in the first place. They're like, I'm really good at this. This is what I want to do. But especially if you think of somebody who's been in the workplace for 10, 15, 20 years, that's a really long time to be doing the same thing if you're the type of person who needs change once in a while. So I think moving internally is kind of a good balance because you've got the safety of familiar with, people that you've built a reputation with, but then shifting to a different type of work. So you still have that element of new, you're still learning something different, but it's not the same as switching industries and companies at the same time, which is quite a dramatic and uphill move to make.

PATRICIA: It is. I think it takes more, sometimes we think the grass is greener on the other side and it's like, Oh, I'll just change to a different position. And it's like, well, there's the culture that you won't know of, you know, just the same way that an organization doesn't necessarily know the talent they're getting. They know they're getting the best communicator. I mean, at the end of the day, that's really what the hiring process is, is can you communicate your skill sets most clearly out of all the candidates? So they know they're getting a great communicator, but are they getting someone who really fits in with their culture, really fits in with their group dynamic? understands the level of corporate speak, right? I know some folks go from a smaller organization to a much larger organization. Next thing they realize, they're like, oh, this has a lot more rules to it than there's a lot more corporate environment than I expected. And so all of those pieces, neither the employer nor the employee can really understand until they're in that situation. But again, when you're in a position what I've realized is a lot of the folks that I work with, the first thing that we work with is figuring out why are you interested in this change? And from the inside, like, like, reach deep, deep into your gut, right? Like, where is this coming from? Are we running towards something like the excitement of a new role, a new position, a new area you're interested in? Or are we making our decisions based off what we no longer want, in which case it's kind of like you're running away from something. But if you're at one point, and if you draw a point on a piece of paper, you can run away from it in an infinite number of directions, right? And there's really only probably a slice of that paper that represents where you actually want to be. So before we can start moving, we've got to figure out where do we actually want to be so that when we are going away from the situation we don't want, we're still going toward the situation that we do want ultimately.

JULIANNA: I love that so much. And I can actually picture that little diagram. Right. I'm wondering, what are you finding? Is there any sort of trending or do you find people are more running to something that they've been wanting for a while? Are they trying to just get out of a situation that's no longer kind of the environment that's good for them?

PATRICIA: You know what, I feel like there's both. Any one of us can be in any one of those situations at any point in time, right? So, if you're listening and you're like, well, which camp am I? Here's like a couple of signs, right? Like the first one is ask yourself, when I think about making a career change, do I feel excitement or do I feel relief? if you feel excitement, you're probably moving towards something like, oh man, this is really like calling my attention, I'm really excited about it, I think I have an interest in it, right? If you feel relief, that means there's something where you're currently at that you want to get away from, that you just, maybe it's a toxic environment, maybe it's, you know, the stress of, like you said, leadership or that position, in which case it's like, okay, if we're seeking relief, let's, Let's put ourselves in a place, let's give ourselves time and space to feel that relief, to get back to the, we're no longer in a place of flight or in a place of survival. And we are mentally and emotionally in a peaceful and content space. And from that place, then we can say, okay, which direction do we want to go? Does that other hill still look as attractive as it did when I was just seeking asylum, basically.

JULIANNA: Yeah, I love how you put that because so many people just talk very generally about, oh, you should always run towards instead of running away and it's such a general concept that yeah, of course, but I love how you actually put some practical approaches to figuring out which one you are and then like how to actually move away from running away and more towards running towards.

PATRICIA: Yeah, there's a, I'm constantly, so I have this thing, you're gonna get to know this about me. I have this thing where I'll read a lot of books and then I'll be like, oh, this reminds me of such and such from a book that I don't remember. That'll be like a thing, a theme. But one of the pieces that came across is that when you're in the career search process, especially now, whether it's internal, external, it is grueling. It is full of you trying to be a human with the system constantly dehumanizing you and turning you into a commodity, taking away what is unique about you and you having to fight to express what's unique about you. And of course, after doing all of that and putting yourself on the line and taking that social risk and you know, then you get either ghosted or flat out rejected, right? It is a grueling emotional process. And so part of what I've learned is like, it is so important to figure out what is fueling you forward. It is so important to know I'm not just changing a job because the grass is greener. I'm changing a job because something in me is like burning. Like I need to, you know, experience X, Y, Z, or I need to put this talent that has been in the back burner for so long. I have to serve people with it. I just feel a duty and like a, like a, just this intrinsic pull towards it, right? As opposed to, oh, that one makes more money or that one has X quality. There's like something deeper. And so that's, that's the piece that reminded me, like, this is why we get so clear because when you get made away, you're not going to finish the journey. If the reason why you started it is simply to get relief. Cause as soon as you feel that relief, then the motivation is going to, going to come down. So, I don't know. That's sort of like my thoughts as far as like, okay, if we're going to make a change, internal or external, but I think even, I think the reason why we had this conversation come up is partially because even when we think we want external change, we sometimes can do really well remarketing ourselves within the organization, coming up with some stories to show that transferable skill set, having a conversation with HR, with managers, with peers to sort of rebrand yourself and say, okay, these are the skills that I have in the areas I want to move into. How do I get there? And so with that, comes all of my questions, which I'm like, okay, I really want to hear from Julianna as far as like the, the, the tips, the strategies, you know, how does someone, if they decide, okay, I've gone through the exploration process, I have realized what I really need is maybe a slight change of perspective, but more than anything else, it's a shift within the organization. How do we get that started from a practical standpoint?

JULIANNA: Yeah, absolutely. And before I get into that, I actually want to go back to something you said earlier about that value add that you can give and that real reason for using a skill set that's been on your back burner contributing, because as a hiring manager, I can tell you that that makes a huge, huge difference. If you can actually articulate why this job, especially when you're making that career transition, Because I can tell you I've interviewed people who had no business applying to the types of roles I was hiring for but my amazing recruiters convinced me to give them a chance anyway. there were always the ones who stood out because they had that clarity that you mentioned of this is the thing that's driving me towards your team towards these roles versus the people who were like oh well I just need a change like that's great but I'm I have a business to run even though it's not the entire company I have a team to to lead we have things that we need to get done you needing a change in your life is not a good enough reason for me to hire you. You may be amazing, but if that's the reason you give me, it's hard for me to make that connection between the change you need and the contribution that you can actually make to the team.

PATRICIA: Okay, that is brilliant because it comes back to that whole idea of like, you know, back in the day, a resume worked back in the day saying what I need X, Y, Z, I need a job in blank function. Okay, great. Let's put you in this position. We are now in a world where every professional to, you know, when we talk about career savvy, career savvy now means being able to market and sell yourself. And marketing is all about empathy, putting yourself in the shoes of a manager and saying, what do they need? What do they want? What problems do they need solved? And how can I solve those problems instead of saying, here's what I need. Here's the problems I have. Can you please solve them for me?

JULIANNA: Absolutely. Because, I mean, we always kind of assume, especially in leadership positions, that you want to be challenged. We hope that you want to be challenged and that you want to learn new things. You want something. But yes, that conversation is really important to have about the things that you need out of the job. But when you're actually being asked by a hiring manager, why this job? Why this change? It needs to be something a little bit more substantial than that.

PATRICIA: Yeah. Oh gosh, this is so good. I have a ton of directions that my brain can go because we can talk about this for hours, but I'm itching to get your perspective as far as tactically, what are the options that someone has when they think, okay, I want to move up from within, but I don't really know how to do that.

JULIANNA: Yeah, so it kind of depends, similar to what you were talking about with that point on a piece of paper in so many directions you can go into. I'll kind of assume that most people aren't looking for moving down a level, so a less senior role or a lower paying job, but at least lateral or moving upwards. Internally, if you're moving laterally, that's probably the easiest transition because you're kind of taking the type of work that you do now and moving it to a different team. So taking the example of, we'll say, a manager, maybe you have been a manager of a certain type of team for a really long time, and you know the type of work that they do. Well, making the transition before you move up to move across into another managerial position in a different part of a company in a different function might be an easier way to do it because then you can really easily show here are my core competencies for managerial work. I can learn what this new team does. I already bring these strengths as a manager. And that can apply to most jobs that aren't specialist type jobs. So let's say marketing, you can move from maybe if you're working at a larger company from one department to another. So you still have that core functionality of I know how to market things. But maybe you're going from business to consumer to business to business. it's a shift, but you still get marketing. So it's easier to kind of sell yourself to that hiring manager to say, okay, I bring these strengths, this stuff I can learn. Where it gets a little tricky is when you're moving from very specialized roles. So let's say you're internal at the company as an accountant, and you're looking to move into something completely different. that's where you would actually benefit a lot from having conversations with other people at the company to say, hey, I'm just kind of exploring right now. And this assumes that they haven't worked with you, Patricia, and figured out exactly what they want. But if you're still in that exploratory phase, you can kind of just reach out to other people in the company and say, this is the type of work I'm good at. This is what interests me. What do you think, like, is there anything in your department that I could maybe consider? What's the gap that I need to close? And if not, is there someone else you can refer me to who might have this conversation with me?

PATRICIA: What are your thoughts on, you know, there's you know, the annual reviews and, and these kinds of structural processes, um, growth plans, development plans. What are your thoughts of like looking strategically at those and finding ways to sort of, um, guide the current, if you will.

JULIANNA: They are an opportunity, but you have to be very, uh, surgical about it.

JULIANNA: So from the perspective of someone who is the manager, those annual, semi-annual reviews are, unfortunately for most of us, paperwork. So they're done in most companies, and especially the larger companies, because there's just so much going on that there's processes in place to make sure that managers at least talk to their employees twice a year about their careers. the reality, unfortunately, is that that's their time to say, okay, I've confirmed this person knows what their job is, what their accountabilities are, and that they're either doing well, they need to work on these things, or I think they're doing really well. So it's more of a check-in, even though it's positioned as a development discussion. If you were to bring that up with your manager, I think whether it's at your semi-annual or annual review, make sure that they know it's coming and that you come prepared with, you know, I've been thinking about it. This is kind of what I'd like to switch my career to and come to them with a general plan. I actually find it's better to have those discussions off cycle because it doesn't catch them up by surprise and you can kind of work towards your next official checkpoint, right? So let's say it's every June and December when you have your formal official development discussions. I would say maybe two months before that, plan to meet with your manager to give them the heads up to say, hey, really love what I'm doing but thinking about my long-term career planning this is kind of the direction I'm going and start the conversation before the official one because in the official one they're they're just scrambling to meet with every single person who reports to them to make sure they meet some deadline of yes I've met with everyone and we're all good

PATRICIA: Oh, so that's smart. So thinking of it from, okay, the next process, whether it's an evaluation or, or, you know, any meeting that is set up for the purposes of looking at your performance and your future. Right. So what you're saying is look forward to that moment. Don't start the conversation in that moment. Have conversations leading up to it. Drop breadcrumbs, if you will. Exactly. Exactly. And then start to move in that direction. Now, what, like from there, what else? Like, how is there a, um, I guess a process in order to do that? Or is it manager approves? You're in there, right? What does that look like?

JULIANNA: Yeah, it really depends on a few different factors. So manager approval, generally. I would say that those breadcrumb conversations, as you've called them, are really crucial for gauging your manager's interest and their willingness to help you. because I've unfortunately worked with some people whose managers have not been supportive. There was one lady I worked with who had been in a fairly junior role for most of her career. And although she was senior for that team, the role in the company hierarchy was fairly low. And she's like, but I can do so much more. I'm like, I know. But she she came to me because her boss didn't agree. Her boss thought that she was kind of capped out and not that she was like after her or thought she can't do this. But just based on what her boss saw, she was like, I don't think you can move past this point because of my own biases. Thank you. So we actually devised a plan where we figured out what it was that her boss thought she was missing. and then crafted a way for her to show her boss that she could do the thing that she insisted she couldn't. Right? So it is unfortunate, but a reality that your boss may just be like, eh, you can't do that job. Or it could be that they're simply too busy or they don't have much of an interest. There are some leaders whose focus is more on the numbers, the metrics, delivery, then staff development. So in those cases, you may have to look to internal mentors or internal advocates to help you get ahead if your boss is kind of like, eh, that sounds great. Go for it. but doesn't offer any support, then at least you know they're kind of like, okay, cool, that's fine. But then you'll have to adjust your strategy to find someone else in the company who can kind of help you through the process who isn't your boss.

PATRICIA: Yeah. And what I hear in what you're sharing is that there's several doors. You open a door and if that door doesn't allow you through, you just go to another one. Right. So if the, you know, the manager doesn't think you have X skill is find out what that skill is. This is where that empathy comes back in and looking at when you do have those conversations, having the, um, self-awareness as far as how you're showcasing yourself and what you demonstrate to them that you trust yourself with and what you don't. Because sometimes we may not realize that the way in which we share something makes the manager think that maybe we're not as confident. And if we're not confident, they won't be able to be confident that we can do the job. So there's that self-awareness. And then there's also that awareness of others where you go into that meeting. You don't want to be stressed. You don't want to be anxious. You want to be fully centered and present because at the same time that you're having this conversation with them, that you're figuring, okay, how am I communicating? Am I communicating confidently in X, Y, Z areas? You're also looking for their non-verbals. Are they cued in? Do they raise an eyebrow when you mention something? Do they hesitate when they say something? Paying attention to all of those pieces is gonna help you discern things they're not saying. They may not say that they don't have confidence in your ability to X, Y, Z, but if you see that hesitation as you're talking, you may then decide, okay, this might be one of the skills that maybe, Because my manager is human, maybe their communication of feedback of, you know, this is what you can improve on is not something they're strong in. And if I know that about my manager, let me read between the lines to figure out what are the hesitations they have, even if they don't say those hesitations. And that way you can then, like you said, you open different doors to either, let me go grow with that skillset. Let me go talk to mentors and, you know, kind of dig wherever the sand is a little bit less, less dense we'll say.

JULIANNA: Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. And I think going back to what you said about that internal strength and that internal clarity. Again, that's so important to have before you start those conversations. Because if you just go to your current manager, forget the hiring manager for the job that you're going after. But if you're just going to your current manager and saying, I need a change, I think there's some people who kind of think that your manager is there to figure out your entire career plan, and that's not the case. You may run into some of these people, and I know I've run into someone who thought that she could just like puppet my entire career for me way, way early. But there are actually fewer of those than managers who are just like, okay, here's the goal that you've set for me. I either agree or disagree with it based on my assessment of you, which could be different than another manager's assessment of you. And then from there, how can I actually help you? Cause maybe that maybe your manager can't help you. And maybe if you're trying to leave, we'll say a job in accounting to take an earlier, earlier example and move, I don't know, into marketing, very different worlds. But if your manager's entire career has been focused on finance, they probably can't help you move into marketing. Mm hmm. Right. So they could be enthusiastic and think, great, you're you're awesome at your job. I believe in you. I think you can do whatever you set your mind to. But I don't know the first thing about marketing, so I can't advocate. I can't help. Exactly. I can't do anything other than sing your praises about how great of an accountant you are.

PATRICIA: Mm hmm. Now, that's great information. As we start to kind of like, you know, wrap things up, I'm looking at the clock and I'm like, oh, We could chat forever. But as we're like getting into that, it just makes me wonder, you know, the piece that we haven't really touched on. I think a lot of times it's so easy to say you can make any change. You can do anything, you know, especially as, as coaches. Right. There's so much, I don't know if it's temptation, if it's like the, the like, excitement of wanting to help someone, right? But there are specific moves that are going to take more time. So if, you know, you're going from accounting to marketing, for example, right? Yeah, your manager may not may or may not be able to advocate for you because it's not their area. But at the same time, you're also looking at, OK, is this a feasible step? Is this a step in which I need either, and I'm not typically an advocate of further education when you are already have your foot in the door, but there are some areas where it's like, okay, I need to go do a certification or something to bridge that gap. So you do want to take a look at that too. But as we start to kind of wrap up for today, I always. think that there is like a moral to the story, right? Some overarching concept that can help us kind of zoom out and see the bigger picture as opposed to the individual tactics, right? And so from your perspective, Julianna, like what would be your big picture takeaway?

JULIANNA: My big picture takeaway is actually something from you, which is having that like precise clarity on you're that little dot on the piece of paper, where do you actually want to go? Because if you don't have even a general idea of the direction that you're going in, it's really hard to figure out the steps, like the individual steps to take to get there. Because maybe we're going from accounting to marketing, there must be something that's drawing you to marketing. And that will help you kind of seed those steps to figure out, okay, you're at point A, you want to get to point B. The driving force is your path. And then you've just got to plot out the steps in between.

JULIANNA: What about you? What's your big picture takeaway from today?

PATRICIA: Okay. This is going to sound crazy, but I'm like, I'm going to piggyback off of what you said, because I think it's really, you brought up a really good point. So I'm going to piggyback off that in that there, you want to know where you're going And it's this balance, and you alluded to it, Julianna, it's this balance of you want to know where you're going in terms of general direction and have enough flexibility that you can't say, I want that position in that department because guess what? They're not going to fire the person who's there just to make room for you. Like there's, you know, you got to look at the parameters. There's your parameters and then there's the parameters of what's possible, what's available, right? What can be opened up? What can be created? Where is money flowing in the organization right now? So it's kind of this space of like, you have a general direction of where you want to go and you still have various open doors that you can start, you know, asking around about, finding information on, determining if you're a good fit for, um, without feeling like I've decided what my direction is and now I have to find my way into that one space, you know? So I like that. I think it's a good, it's a good balance.

JULIANNA: Sweet. Yeah. And you may find after you have all those discussions that you're actually quite happy where you are.

PATRICIA: Which, you know, what a way to end the episode that you just might realize that what you need more than anything else is just to change maybe a perspective. And you'd be surprised at how I've sometimes I've worked with people that are like, I want a career change. We don't actually get to a career change. And I sometimes feel like, oh, we didn't do what we set out to do. But if, you know, a client is happier and they're like, no, I've realized this is what I meant to do, right? I just got stuck in the minutiae. I got stuck in the day-to-day grind that I forgot to look at the impact I'm making or just whatever that perspective is.

JULIANNA: I think that's huge because, I mean, what a terrible situation for someone to make a career move and then be even more miserable than they were before. I think even though there wasn't a career change in that situation, that's still really valuable work.

PATRICIA: Life is better. That's the point, right? Life is better. Gosh, well, it was so much fun spending time with you today.

JULIANNA: Yes, same here. I love our conversations.

PATRICIA: Well, I'm excited that we are going to continue these conversations. So if you are listening on either one of our two podcasts, know that we are going to continue these. We're actually continuing under the title of Elevated Leadership, Balancing Emotional Intelligence and Strategic Execution.

JULIANNA: Yes. So stay tuned for more conversations on both the emotional intelligence and strategy side of things for your career.

PATRICIA: Awesome. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you on the next one.

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