67. Elevated Leadership: Giving feedback for improved morale and performance

JULIANNA:
Welcome to the Uncommon Career or Daring to Succeed podcast, depending on where you're joining us.

PATRICIA: I am Patricia.

JULIANNA: And I'm Julianna.

PATRICIA: And we're here for another co-hosted episode of Elevated Leadership, Balancing Emotional Intelligence and Strategic Execution.

JULIANNA: In these episodes, Patricia and I look into the two sides of a career move or situation where I'll look at more of the strategic execution.

PATRICIA: And I'll focus on emotional intelligence strategies. And for today's topic, we're going to be talking about what do you do when you're a leader and you've got to provide feedback for your team. So let's start the conversation. Julianna, it's always awesome to kind of co-host this with you today. How are you? I'm so good, Patricia. How are you? I'm doing great. And I'm particularly excited for today's podcast episode and today's topic, because I know that you and I have chatted on a couple of different things related to this. So where shall we start?

JULIANNA: I think maybe we can talk about how hard it is to both give and receive feedback, especially as a leader. I don't know what you've seen with your coaching clients, but I know a lot of people come to me because they've gotten feedback, not necessarily from their direct leader, but just in general about things that don't really resonate with them and they're really struggling with it. So I think the topic of how to present the feedback in a useful way is really important.

PATRICIA: Yeah, definitely. Like how how to share it in a way that can be received gracefully, because there's there's the there's the giving of information. Let's not even go into feedback, right? The giving of information, the receiving information. And one thing that I noticed that we do, I feel like I'm jumping straight into the deep end here, but one thing that I noticed that as humans, we have this tendency to do because this is the information we have is we can judge the people that are giving us information based on the impact that it has on us. but we judge the information, the communication we give out based on the intent, which is unseen by other people. So if you can imagine, right, both sides, each person is judging the other by their impact, but judging themselves by their intent, there's a lot of room for miscommunication there. And I don't know why I decided to jump straight into the deep end, bringing that up, but that's kind of what it reminded me of when you mentioned that, like being able to acknowledge that piece when sharing that feedback. And I really like how you shared the beginning piece, just kind of a light bulb went off in my head when you said, you said that in order to be able to give good feedback, it was something to the effect of, you also need to be able to know how to receive it. But that was really interesting.

JULIANNA: Yeah, because it's actually two very different skill sets in my mind, like how to give feedback versus how to receive it, because when you're on the receiving end you're kind of getting all this information coming at you, you've got to process it, figure out which parts you're concerned about, which parts the person is concerned about, how to respond, what to do with it, like, that can be a lot depending on what's coming at you. But then on the opposite side, giving feedback, there's, like you said, the intent of doing something good for this person to say, okay, I want to help you be better. But especially nowadays when it's like hybrid and you're either on video, hopefully seeing the person so you can pick up all the non-verbal cues, but maybe your camera's not working or maybe you're getting feedback by text. or trying to catch somebody at the right time to give them this feedback. There's so much opportunity for miscommunication and the message being garbled up when it gets to you, when it gets to the person that you want to give it to.

PATRICIA: No, absolutely. And that idea of that message kind of changing, it's like playing telephone, right? Like you prepare, And when you prepare as a leader to give feedback to those people that have been working so hard all year or all quarter, like you said, that intent is, I wanna help you be a better professional. And I think maybe that's the place to start. That might be a good first step is to, before you even start jotting down, what feedback do I need to give to this person? Kind of take a step back, look at the bigger picture and say, okay, human to human, right? let me put myself in a mindset where I'm doing this for their long-term benefit, for our long-term benefit as a team, because it's so easy. I find it, maybe it's my personality style. Tell me, Julianna, if I'm right. But I find it so easy to critique. I find it so easy, right? And I think that's maybe just normal in human life. It's so easy to look at something and say, red flag, red flag, red flag, all these things are wrong. But it's much, much harder to acknowledge everything that's being done right and find the areas that are going to be these innovations, right? A small tweak for a really big change. And I think that's one of the pieces where a leader can kind of step back, do a little bit of prep in their mindset, and then also a little bit of prep and getting the type of feedback together to then share it a little bit more. I don't know, intentionally is the word.

JULIANNA: Yeah, absolutely. I see that a lot, especially in newer leaders where they feel like they have to give a lot to their team so that they can make the impact that they want as a leader. And without doing that mindful work of putting it together and kind of packaging it up for that impact, like you said, It's so easy for it to come across as just critical nitpicking because rather than sitting them down in a time when the person is receptive to the feedback, you're just kind of being like, oh yeah, you did that wrong. Oh, I found the spelling mistake. And maybe in your own mind, you're like, I'm helping, which is great. But maybe on the receiving side, it doesn't come across that way because that person might be going through something else or just the way it's coming through in their past experiences. It's not having the impact that you want.

PATRICIA: Yeah. And there's a word for what you're mentioning right now. There's a word I learned recently, and I feel like we both do this in our practice, but this term came up of appreciative inquiry that it's been a while since I've used it, heard it, you know. But I have this really great mentor who sent me this book. I don't have it in front of me, but it was all about appreciative inquiry. And there was a quote that, He's so great at sharing stories that when he shared this quote in this story, I nearly cried. Like I literally was like, get it together. It was just such a like, gosh, it was such a powerful quote. I'm not going to make y'all cry because I just am not as good as he is at telling stories. But it was something to the effect of. When you appreciate somebody, their value appreciates. So he talks about when you, you know, like when a home appreciates, its value goes up. And it was very much like when you pay really close attention, not just to what's being done wrong, but what's being done well, and then build off of that. So it's sort of like, here's what you're doing really well. And then if you made this tweak, it would go even better kind of from that perspective. Um, it was, and I, I'm, I wish I could, quote and bottle it up so you can see that I'm not a crybaby, that it was actually a very powerful moment. But it was just very, it was, it was very powerful to recognize like when you take the time to appreciate this person and come at it from that perspective, their value increases in their own sight, their value, their self-efficacy increases, their self-esteem, their confidence, but also in your eyes as a leader. And so now when you go into the team and you've done this with every single team member, imagine you're a team lead, you've done this process. You go now in front of your team, you're about to go through this challenging, stressful next project. And now every single team member in their own eyes is more effective, has higher confidence, feels they can be a little bit more vulnerable. They can experiment a little bit more because they feel your support. They feel seen. They feel their strengths are seen. Now imagine how much more you can do if you just took your time in those feedback sessions. I don't know. It's just really, I feel like it's really powerful. And that's what, you know, what you mentioned kind of brought to my mind.

JULIANNA: Yeah. And I wonder what, what would you say to someone you were coaching if they're struggling with finding those good things to point out? Because I know either, like even myself, when I was in corporate as a leader, I've had people come to me sort of early in their time on the team asking, Oh, you know, how am I doing? What can I improve? And what am I doing well? And Honestly, sometimes I would really, really struggle because they were so good, but I couldn't quite put it into words. There wasn't an aha moment. I couldn't be like, your communication is awesome or your whatever is awesome. It was just like, I didn't even think or worry about these people because they were doing so well. It was just, you wouldn't have to be concerned about that part of the team, but I knew I had to make sure that they knew where they were doing well.

PATRICIA: Oh my gosh, I just absolutely love the question, the thought behind what you're mentioning. So many things come to mind, right? There's the squeaky wheel gets the oil, like that whole situation, right? Where it's like, if something's not going well, then it's like, okay, let me find this one good thing, right? But I think, and I, one thing I've noticed as I've worked with some really high achievers, as I'm sure you do as well, right? And you probably have seen this too, where all the time I get goosebumps because they'll send me their leadership reports, their personality assessments, their 360s. And I see it and I'm like, you're amazing. I'm like, oh my goodness. You know what I'm saying? Like, wow. In my mind when I see feedback and comments and you know, these like super high ratings and all these accomplishments. I'm like, and the crazy thing is sometimes it's the most highest achievers that see their value the least.

JULIANNA: Yes.

PATRICIA: And that I think is the piece that is so, um, I'm just so curious about it. Right. Um, because It's almost like you're such a well oiled machine that you don't need maintenance, but that's actually not true. Right. And so in those moments, one thing that is helpful just to kind of bring it down to like a more, I don't know, pragmatic approach. I don't know. But one thing that I personally have found helpful because I need, I need like clarity and structure to, to see something that might be abstract, especially for the first time. So for me, what tends to help is, you know, those personality assessments, there's always like you're extrovert or introvert. Well, you know that one for sure. Right. Or, you know, you're, really open or you're highly skeptical and everyone's somewhere in the spectrum. And the reality is that there is a upside and a downside to every single place on that spectrum. And so sometimes I look at I'm like, OK, it's hard for me to see and pinpoint something specific. So let me just pick one out of thin air. Let me just pick a quality. And you can probably Google is that's the fastest way. Right. But your company probably has specific reports and specific, you know, qualities and traits. So I would just pick one of those and say, where is this person on that line? And that will help to say, okay, what are the benefits of this? So just kind of breaking it down in that way, I think can help to like stop and zoom in in one area and then say, okay, what do they do in this specific area? Because chances are, you probably think they're great. They're a well-oiled machine, nothing to change. Okay. It's going to be an easy feedback session. And I really encourage, you know, all of us, if we're going to be providing feedback, especially in those really easy feedback sessions that appear easy, it's really an opportunity to acknowledge someone for the work that they're doing in specific terms. Because saying great job, I don't know about you, but I feel like I'm being patted on the head and given a cookie. You know what I mean?

JULIANNA: Like, I want to know. Okay, now go keep doing good things now.

PATRICIA: Yeah, Keep doing your job. I'm going to go talk to these other people that need my attention. Right. Imagine that's like mom and dad saying, you know, the straight A student gets no attention and the one that's cutting school has all the attention, you know what I mean? And so, you know, take your time and really, um, put in, it is it's work, you know, just like all the other parts of our jobs. So put in the time to get to know why specifically they are doing such great work. Um, and then pinpoint that in those sessions.

JULIANNA: I really love that especially what you mentioned about linking it back to skills that are valued by the company, because there always are those lists of skills or traits or whatever things aspects of the way you work. that are more highly valued at a specific company, even specific teams and roles. So I love the idea of attaching it back to that, because kind of thinking back to something we were talking about last time with those mid-year and end-of-year performance reviews, that can really help with, OK, not only have I given in-between feedback, feedback between those sessions, but then I can keep that for this person's file later to say, OK, we'll stick with communication. Communication is a highly valued skill at the company and really valuable for your work in these ways. And here's how you're great at it. And that's something that can be really powerful, both as a leader for that person's file when you have to write up how amazing they are, but also for the individual when they're then self-promoting for their next role to say, hey, answering that question, What is, what have other people said are great qualities about your, what would your manager say about you? You can actually give them that little gift to say, here's what I'm saying about you. And whether they, they remember it or not, that's something they can use in the future for self-promotion.

PATRICIA: Wow. I love how you just took a lot of the things that we've been talking about and you put boots on the ground. You know what I mean? Because I think we often are like, yeah, that's great. But what do I do today? You know, and I really like how you brought that down, you know, to how you can give them something tangible and also how you, how you can sort of build in a very simple low admin process to make it valuable over time.

JULIANNA: Yeah. Yeah. I like those strategies where you can kind of check off a couple of boxes all at the same time.

PATRICIA: Yeah, seriously. Okay. So, you know, I love your highly pragmatic mind. And so in my mind, part of me, I would, I would like, is there a, some sort of a checklist or like some things to keep in mind as you're coming up with feedback from that, from that more, you know, tactical standpoint?

JULIANNA: Yeah, I would say maybe shifting a little off of good feedback to the stuff that we always dread, which is the feedback that requires some work. There's always kind of two main buckets that I look at. One is feedback that you've gotten from elsewhere in the organization as a leader for someone on your team that they're like, Joe needs to, I don't know, calm down when he talks. He's too animated, he's freaking everyone out, or what have you. And then there's feedback that you've observed yourself as a leader. And I think the two are very different. The feedback that you get from outside of the team, I find a lot of leaders just take what they've received and just kind of pass it along. And honestly, that's almost always a recipe for disaster. I think when leaders do that, they're trying to be helpful to say, here's exactly what I have been told. This is what's being said about you. This is the concern. You need to go fix this. Which again, well-intended, but a lot of the times that feedback is only a slice of the reality of what's happening. So I would definitely encourage you as a leader to, if you've gotten feedback, even if you agree with it, to actually probe a little bit more with that person to say, okay, you know, can you give me some examples of when this has actually happened? Because a lot of the times you're going to be asked for this by the person that reports to you, because they'll want that example. They'll be like, I don't understand what you're talking about. I don't, I disagree. Show me like, when did I actually do this? So get some examples of when that happened. And a lot of the times what you'll find is as you dig more, it may be just a miscommunication. I've seen miscommunication in terms of the job description. So maybe someone's like, Oh, you know, Jane's not doing her job. And you're like, Oh my God, that's terrible. I need to go tell her to do her job. But maybe if you talk to this other person who thinks that that Jane on your team isn't doing her job, they describe what they're expecting your team to do, you might realize that that's not actually their job. Right. Or, or maybe they're doing things in a certain way that you actually specifically instructed your team to do. Yeah. That person just doesn't like the way it's being done. Well, that that's a very different conversation than a correction that needs to be made by your team members.

PATRICIA: Oh, that's great. To be able to get information from different spaces, but then at the same time, read between the lines, gather, you know, significant sample size, if you will, so that you see a pattern versus an individual critique. Because then, like you said, right, they're going to want to see the examples. And then when you share the example, they're going to say, I know exactly who said that about me. You know? And so it's like finding ways to, finding ways to share information so that it doesn't impact team dynamics, so that it's an upward move because the point of the feedback is to improve team performance. Yes. That's just right. And so oftentimes the opposite happens because team dynamics are influenced or team morale is influenced. And it's just such a delicate, I feel like the feedback, you know, feedback sessions, the process evaluations, all of that. Anytime you get feedback, I feel like it's a hinge and it's a very important hinge on which from here, the situation could get better or it could get worse. Right. And so I really, I appreciate those steps. I find myself asking what else, like what else is there as far as preparing?

JULIANNA: Yeah. So on the other side with feedback that you've observed, same thing. prepare some examples of, Oh, I've observed this behavior. I don't, I think people really care so much about what you think their intent was, but kind of explaining the impact because you're not there to argue with them on whether they intended for something to happen. It's more go into it expecting, okay, you probably intended something good, but this, this is what I'm observing. This is what I'm seeing. And. kind of tagging on to that, one thing that I think some leaders overuse, or maybe too literally follow, is the idea of immediate feedback. So immediate feedback doesn't mean you stop a meeting with a bunch of people in there, because I've actually seen that, where they're like, I don't know why this person is so upset with feedback. Well, you just call them out in front of the entire team. Probably not so great. So it's immediate in terms of don't wait for that annual review, but maybe within that week, find a time to connect with that person one-on-one when they're in a time that they can receive the feedback. Um, I've, I've seen leaders who will give feedback sort of haphazardly just before someone's had to go into a big meeting and present things. So have an idea of what's going on with your team member. Maybe they're preparing for something really big and perhaps the feedback might help them. But honestly, more often than not, it's just going to rock them and destroy their self-confidence. They'll be fixated on it. So it's better to kind of, even if it will help them, wait until afterwards. Maybe even see if it happens at that meeting or whatever that thing is that they have coming up. to see, okay, well, maybe I was worried it didn't happen. So it's a lesser conversation. Um, but creating that space for them, I think is really important and it, it lets them know that you care enough to kind of investigate what's going on to make sure that you're doing your best as a leader to, to give them that difficult feedback when, when they can actually receive it.

PATRICIA: Yeah. Yeah. I think as we go into the more like, here's how to give feedback when you're in that space already, as opposed to prepping. Right. When you say that part of this conversation that you're having with someone, right. Immediate, but not so immediate that it, you know, is counterproductive. The other piece too is, being able to foreshadow success. So you're in the space, ideally in a private space, right? You're giving feedback and you're sharing. clear, direct examples that are not too far in the past. And so they see, Oh, I see how this impacted the bottom line. But then it's kind of like compliment sandwich, right? Like let's add something positive to it. So it's like, okay, I know you can be successful. I recently had someone, I recently had someone that had, um, just, you know, not the most pleasant experience with a supervisor, um, with the manager. And, uh, it just hadn't been positive for a while, but there's one phrase they said, Okay, so if you're listening, and you're wondering, you know, just give me specific words. There's one phrase they said that this person remembered, and that made a big impact. After all of this negative feedback, or after all of these, you know, like, you know how it could be, right? Anything goes wrong. And it's like, they point to you. And it's like, but it's had nothing to do with it, right? It happens all the time. And that laugh is like confirmation, right? Like it happens all the time. But despite all of that in this conversation, they said, I believe in you in the middle of feedback, in the middle of saying, you know, maybe this didn't go well, or this is going to be difficult. It's going to be a stressful moment coming up, or I'm going to challenge you. I'm going to push you or I'm going to be really difficult. Right. What was remembered was I believe in you.

JULIANNA: Right.

PATRICIA: And that can be so powerful to be able to say, here's your feedback, but let's foreshadow this next situation. Here's what you can do differently, like specifics. And then, you know, I know you can do it. I believe it, you know, that is, is so powerful.

JULIANNA: Yeah. And you, you've kind of grazed it a little bit. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about a little bit more about what you mean by foreshadowing the situation. Cause I think there's something really amazing in there.

PATRICIA: Yeah. So, you know, I think when something doesn't go well, you know, whether we realize or the project isn't going well, or we get that feedback, no matter what it is, as humans, like we always want to make things right. It is rare. There might be team members that maybe aren't as good at something or maybe they're really tired. But at the core, I personally believe we all want to do well. We all want to fix anything that is not on the up and up. And so foreshadowing to me leaves the conversation in a, in a hopeful state. And that hopeful state increases that intrinsic motivation to want to do better. So as opposed to, you know, let's say you're a leader and you're giving some feedback and you provide that feedback. And so that person then leaves and you think, Oh, I just told them exactly what they needed to do. It's very clear. It's direct. followed all the rules. I did a compliment sandwich, right? And they head off, right? And then something's just off. They're just not performing. And you think it might be, oh, it might be time for a, you know, um, was that performance improvement plan or, you know, um, I think instead it might be so life giving, I think is the right word to provide the feedback and then say, okay, listen, I, any version of, I believe in you, I think you can do it. You know, I think it's possible. Um, but then say, here's the next project or the next opportunity that might be, or even asking them, right. As you coach them, you're asking them questions. When do you think the next opportunity to practice this skill or to experiment with a different way of doing this? Right. And you can together find out, okay, here's this next opportunity. And then sort of foreshadowing saying, I know that you can do what we just talked about. And I'm looking forward to seeing that. And I think in that moment it changes, at least for me and for folks that I've talked to, it changes your mindset from, I suck. Let's be honest, right? It changes your mindset from, I suck. I did this wrong. I have to get fired. Yes. Right. Like I'm going to get mad. I get those text messages all the time. I'm about to get fired. Oh my gosh, I need to work on career transition. I'm like, well, let's, let's breathe a little bit. and see where this goes, right? And oftentimes that's not the case. Sometimes it is, but often, most of the time it isn't. But it changes our perspective from going back to work thinking, I'm not good at this. And because work is so tied to identity, it usually turns into, I'm not good, period. So it not only affects that one area, it affects every other area of their work. And so if we can shift that perspective, leave it on a hopeful note, now it's like, Okay, I can't wait to show this person that I can improve. I know that they know I can improve because they told me that in the meeting, but now I know exactly what moment in time I'm looking to basically shine to, you know, fix what has been wrong and to end on a good note.

JULIANNA: I love that so much. I actually got chills as you were talking about it, because there's, there's a lot of, you mentioned checklists, there are a lot of checklists that you'll see in the workplace, especially as a leader, your seminars about how to give feedback. And there is always the step to make sure you follow up with your, your team member, have a little plan together. And honestly, a lot of what is taught in those formal courses is very cold, very administrative. And I like how you put it with kind of teasing out either here's an opportunity I see for your future to improve or let's think together on when the next time you can improve on this and adding in that I believe in you or your personal variation because otherwise it's just All right. Now I've got, I've got to check this off on my checklist that I have spoken to you. You have confirmed that you understand what I told you and you've confirmed that you're going to improve. So I, I feel like what you've laid out is a much more human approach to, to kind of working with them to say, okay, now that we've gotten past the giving the feedback and all the great stuff about understanding the impact. Here's a little boost. Yes, that was a tough conversation. And let's leave it on a positive note instead of sending the person off thinking that they're going to get fired or reprimanded.

PATRICIA: No, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, this is, I mean, this has been such a great conversation and I'm, you know, I, I feel like, again, we can go on and on and on. But I've noticed that one thing you're really great at, and so I want to ask you the question. One thing you're really great at is kind of taking something that might feel a little bit abstract and making it, making it implementable, right? I don't know if that's a word. I'm going to make that word up for Julianna. She makes everything implementable. So, so how, like, what are the action steps that you would lay out for someone in a situation that, you know, let's say they have to give feedback in a month or so.

JULIANNA: Yeah, I'd say if I kind of look back to the conversation that we've just had, it's starting with understanding the source and the impact of the feedback. So where is it coming from? What's the improvement that we're seeking? Because sometimes it may not even be a personal thing. It could be just feedback again that's coming from outside where they're saying, oh, this person sends too many emails. Well, maybe they don't. Maybe the person saying it receives too many emails and they would like fewer emails in general. So kind of understanding where it's coming from, what the actual ask is, what's the change that's being requested from the feedback. and then doing that prep to say okay I understand what I want to say to this person, what the the impact is going to be, and I found a good time to actually present it to them. Have the conversation Honestly, as a human being, I've seen a lot of feedback and I've given feedback as well that has been super awkward. The conversation kind of started and stopped, didn't know if the person was still on the phone or if they were crying or what was going on. But even if the conversation isn't perfectly scripted and smooth and happy, they always came back afterwards with gratitude that we got through the conversation itself. Like one person even said, I know that was really hard for you. Like I can tell you really didn't know how to have the conversation, but thank you for pushing through it because I feel better having it. So I think just being like human and real about it is going to matter so much more than any script or checklist that you have. And then taking that wrap up, like you said, just to kind of boost them up at the end to be like, I believe in you, not necessarily in a rah-rah way, but just that confirmation that, you know, they can be better. And that's why you're having the conversation I think will be so much better than, than all these sit downs or, or what I call the fly by night feedback sessions where they just kind of drop by, tell you, and then you're like, what just happened? Oh, yes.

PATRICIA: I have to pause. I know we're kind of winding down, but you said something so important that maybe we'll dig into in a future episode. Let's foreshadow this here. You said that someone told you, I know this was hard for you, but I'm glad we had this conversation. There is something about working through conflict that builds relationships up with so much more strength than surface level feedback. And I, you know, we won't start a whole new topic right now, but I think that might be something to tap into in a future episode, which I, so powerful. Yeah. Okay. So why don't we give quick one minute last words? What, what would you share in this one minute or less more, whatever?

JULIANNA: Just trying to think what I would say. I'd say a takeaway that I'd have from this conversation is that feedback is hard. It's not an easy thing to do either to give or receive it. And I think probably a lot of us overthink it. And if we're just authentic, it'll come across better.

PATRICIA: I'm gonna piggyback off of you because that was a really good point. It is, it is hard, right? And we can't, if we go into it thinking it's going to be easy, it might be easy, but it won't lead us to where we want the team to go. So I agree, just, you know, make peace Settle on that, you know, preparing for feedback is going to require some deep work and thought and reflection and consideration of the person. And then going into the conversation, it's going to be hard. It's going to bring up potentially some conflict, but there is productive conflict, which it sounds like we're going to talk about in a future episode. There is productive conflict and it's well worth the battle to win the war. Totally.

JULIANNA: Yeah. All right. This was such a good conversation, Patricia.

PATRICIA: I think it was too. I think, you know, everyone listening, I hope that you got a lot out of it. And one of the great things is that you can work with either Julianna or myself. If you find yourself in that situation, maybe you just need to, you know, have a conversation with us about providing feedback or anything related to these leadership concepts. Um, you've got my website at theuncommoncareer.com and Julianna.

JULIANNA: Yes. And you can find me at jyycoaching.com.

PATRICIA: Yeah. And so I'm, you know, we, we welcome you to, you know, sign up for a, a coaching consult or, you know, send us an email, um, just reach out to us, see us on LinkedIn. If you've got any questions about anything we talked about today.

JULIANNA: Yeah. Both of us love hearing from you and what's going on with you at work right now. So don't be shy.

PATRICIA: Awesome. All right. Well, we hope that y'all have a great rest of your day. Check out the links in the description and we'll see you on the next one. Bye. Bye.

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