70. How to Deal with a Narcissistic Boss (Elevated Leadership)

JULIANNA:
Here we go. Hey there, welcome to the Daring to Succeed or the Uncommon Career Podcast, depending on where you're joining us. I'm Julianna.

PATRICIA: And I'm Patricia. And we're here for another co-hosted episode of Elevated Leadership, Balancing Emotional Intelligence and Strategic Execution.

JULIANNA: And in these episodes, Julianna and I will look at the two sides of a career move or situation. We're all focused on the emotional intelligence strategies,

PATRICIA: And I'll look more at the strategic execution.

JULIANNA: And for today's episode, we're talking about horrible bosses. It's a conversation that Julianna and I were chatting about just before this episode or just before we hit record. So I'll let you start, Juliana. What are your thoughts when it comes to this horrible boss situation that seems to be so common?

PATRICIA: Yeah, I think it's a conversation that never seems to end because unfortunately, there are so many terrible bosses out there. And I mean, anybody can think of the millions of movies and shows that make fun of horrible, terrible bosses. But unfortunately, it is the reality of being in corporate probably in any workplace actually, that you're going to run into a boss that is less than perfect at best and at worst they could make your workday a living nightmare.

JULIANNA: Oh, absolutely. And before we get into the living nightmare side of things, I noticed we started on this note of, hey, today we're talking about horrible bosses. Yeah. Right. So let me just preface that with the idea that there are some fantastic leaders out there. And when we talk about horrible bosses, imagine that we're personifying a concept more so than a particular person. And I also agree with you that you're mentioning that you know, not everyone is going to be a perfect leader. Actually, no one's going to be a perfect leader. And so sometimes there's these small adjustments that can make a big difference. But then there's other situations where it's just really difficult to get along with your leader. And so that's what we'll be chatting about today.

PATRICIA: Yeah, and to your point, Patricia, I think there's also a difference between a boss that has a very different work style than yours versus a boss who is just nearly impossible to get along with. Because obviously there are people who you can eventually find a path to working with them in a way that you don't need to change how you work. You don't need them to change how they work. You just need to understand each other and kind of find that common ground whereas today what we're really wanting to focus on is the discussion around what what do you do what happens when you're stuck with that boss who is not just terrible for you but for everyone and again to your point personified we're not trying to pick on anyone but we do know that it is the reality for a lot of people out there

JULIANNA: Yeah, definitely. And I know, you know, there's different ways in which a leader can make life a little difficult sometimes or can maybe, you know, leader and staff member, team member, you know, maybe don't get along. Right. But one of the situations that we talked about was the word narcissist came up. Right. If you are listening to this and you think, oh, ding, ding, ding, like I know what that is, right? There is a diagnosable narcissism that you can look into the DSM-5 and get a full on clinical diagnosis, right? Then there's just like narcissistic traits and qualities, right? So what might be in your experience, Julianna, some symptoms or qualities of, um, you know, that as a team member, you can kind of go down in your mind and say, okay, this is a type of situation I'm dealing with. So then we can figure out, okay, how do I deal with this particular type of leader?

PATRICIA: Yeah, there's so much written about narcissism and I think it's almost a natural trait that can manifest in leaders because oftentimes we want our leaders to be super confident and have all that confidence to lead a team, to do the impossible. And statistically, you're going to get some narcissists who also get into leadership. And from a day-to-day perspective, I would say that if they're always focused on themselves, that's a clear indication. So we were talking about this before, where it could be that anything that you do wrong, it's your fault. But anything you do right, they somehow claim credit for it. Somehow. they'll manifest a reality that explains why they should get the credit. So it's a little bit different than someone who's just blatantly taking credit or forgetting to mention your contributions. They're actually changing the reality as they tell the story so that their contribution didn't actually happen, but they believe it. Yeah, it's almost like- Or they've forgotten that you exist and they actually believe it, for them it's reality.

JULIANNA: Yeah, it's an imagining. It's an imagining of a scenario in which all good things come from you, right? So even some other examples, like as you're sharing, narcissism or those traits really surround sort of your own world in which, you know, if you're working with someone and they're exhibiting these traits, you're looking at someone who needs, you know, constant validation, constant admiration because even though they might seem extremely confident, it's actually a very fragile ego that's underneath that. And so it's very much needs validation, gets upset when they don't receive that validation. So those are some of the things you can look for. For example, super sensitive to criticism, cannot receive feedback, but then lacks empathy when they're providing feedback to someone else or when they're telling someone else a criticism. And it's interesting, It's interesting because as you're working with someone who maybe exhibits some of these qualities, it may feel like a losing battle, but there are things you can do to sort of mitigate that relationship. It's kind of like managing your manager, right? There's things you can do to identify what are the triggers for this person. you know, what seems to be a, you know, place of insecurity and wherever that place of insecurity is, a vulnerability is with them, that's going to be likely their biggest trigger and an area that you may want to steer clear from, even though it's going to be the easiest area to poke at. So emotionally, you're going to be attracted to poking at that area because that's the space in which you win and you never win in these situations, but you're actually going to make the situation worse by poking at those insecurities if we are dealing with hazardous narcissistic traits and qualities.

PATRICIA: Yeah. And I'm so glad you started off with such an honest approach to it, because I've worked with a lot of people who think, well, I'll just change them. Or, you know, it's my role to make sure that I'm honest and and if they're doing something wrong, they need to know about it. Maybe if I just tell them in the right way they'll change or they'll hear me and it's just not the case right where if they are truly narcissistic or they have these strong narcissistic tendencies you can't change them and trying to do so is a what do we call those a career limiting move so you may feel like like Patricia said tempted to poke at that that spot or to um to try and be the person who snaps them out of it but that's really not going to happen and really not your role because you're just going to encourage them to rain hell on you and and really you're going to end up damaging the relationship yeah and this is where like on that you know um

JULIANNA: where we can very much call out like that emotional intelligence of, you know, I sometimes hear, and bear with me, bear with me, because it may not be a popular opinion at the moment, but I sometimes hear, well, I don't want to adapt to this person because I should be, I feel like I'm inauthentic, right? But the emotional intelligence skill set involved there is awareness of another person and then negotiating that relationship. Now in maybe, maybe later on in this episode, we'll talk a little bit about what are the signs that it is not a negotiable situation for you and that you need to get out ASAP or you need to, you know, talk to HR. Like what are those places in which it's no longer you negotiating a relationship and using your skills to manage that, but it's a time to get out or to rectify the situation, maybe even legally. But before that, before all of that, some things that you can do to manage the relationship, as long as it's not going out of those ethical boundaries and those types of things. It's going to sound interesting. You ready? You want to provide positive feedback, especially in those areas that matter most to them, AKA the areas where they might be a little bit insecure. So you want to provide them honest, but positive feedback. And you also want to look at things like, okay, what really matters to you? There is, I don't know if it's a saying or a mantra, whatever you want to call it. But early in my career, I was taught, A, you dress for the job you want, not the job you have. And B, your job is to make your manager look good. If you want to move up, your job is to make your manager look good. And so this is valid even and especially in this situation where your boss might have those narcissistic qualities. So it's like, okay, how can I be an honest person, but also be strategic about in which ways am I honest, right? So you can tell me, very honest things that are going to damage our relationship, whether I have narcissistic qualities or not. Or you can look at the positive traits in me and then reinforce those. And then it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The things that are reinforced in us in a positive way, we act more on. So if they do something that you know, is building up the team or that shows any tiny little bit of empathy or consideration, you just, wow, I really appreciate how you did X, Y, Z. You know, I think that makes a great team and I'm glad to be, you know, um, to be a recipient on that side of, on that action behavior, whatever it might be. So positive feedback on the things you want to reinforce and, um, paying attention to what really matters to them, focusing on those things, making them look good, and then avoiding those triggers.

PATRICIA: Yeah and I think a lot of people when they hear this type of advice recoil because they're worried that they're going to feed into the narcissism which actually isn't the case. It really does feel like it. I've been in situations either personally or coaching others or dealing with narcissistic bosses where it's like okay but if I give them if I fulfill their need i'm like forget what that means for me but for them that means i'm feeding into their narcissism i'm feeding into this fragile ego that needs that little bit of a boost that's terrible i don't want to do that but that's not actually the case because that simple act of meeting their need you're you're almost disarming the other person where you're you're moving them from that state of you know, I kind of picture a bubble being burst at any moment to, okay, you are safe. you can trust me, you can be safe in this space with me and we can have whatever that conversation needs to be to move them forwards into the, like you said, the direction that you want them to go. And I think that conversation about the positive reinforcement is really important here because negative reinforcement does not work with narcissists at all.

JULIANNA: No, absolutely not. And you know what you what you're mentioning is just bringing so much up for me as far as, you know, we want to create that safe space for them. But I like how you mentioned that there's this kind of almost backwards, you know, perception of it, right? Like if I, you know, reinforce positively, then I will make the situation worse. But what you're doing, like you mentioned, it's making the space just a little bit more safe, making the relationship just a little bit more safe, right? That particular person, if they do resemble those narcissistic qualities, what they need is, is in all honesty, a therapist, right? It's beyond your scope. So there is nothing. And so this is one of those boundaries to set. There is nothing you can do to quote unquote change this person. All you can do is manage the relationship directly between them and you, what you communicate to them, what they communicate and how they communicate things to you. You have a little bit less of an impact on, but you can manage the relationship, how they are with other people, how they are in life, who they are, that is outside of our scope. And so that not even a coach, like a narcissist is a diagnosable disorder that if they're truly exhibiting this, maybe it's very, very slight and they're just qualities. And maybe a coach can work with them on behavioral change. But if they're truly a narcissist, they don't believe that they are. They want nothing to do with any kind of improvement and therefore really what you're looking for is a therapist. So put that boundary, that realistic expectation that all you can do is manage your relationship. And then that boundary is also really important because as we're, quote unquote, creating a little bit safer space for that relationship, there is room for them to push boundaries. So as you're doing that, you do want to set really clear boundaries. kind of in your own time before you start approaching them of, you know, what am I willing and not willing to do? And here's my what if statements, right? If I am asked to do X, Y, Z, knowing they're going to take credit for it, how can I either put my unique stamp on it that when they take credit, everybody will know that is my work or, you know, whatever boundary you have set in place. Um, yeah, but that brought up your conversation brought up a lot. So thank you for sharing that, Joanna.

PATRICIA: Yeah and I love that you started talking about boundaries too because I find oddly enough and this isn't something that I would have expected but most of the people again that I've worked with or who I've coached dealing with narcissists we found that they actually respond really well to boundaries when they're very clear and the repercussions are very clear, but more importantly, when you hold strong to them. So when you set a boundary and you hold on tight to it, they respond really well. At first, they will probably kick and scream and, you know, the sky is falling, you hate me, this isn't fair, blah, blah, blah. But when they know that this is your boundary, this is a clear boundary, not just for them, but for everyone, and they're free to do whatever they want to, but if they cross that boundary, This is how you will respond. This is repercussion from your side. Once they know that, once they start bumping into that boundary, once you start reinforcing it, they will eventually respect that boundary. It just takes a little bit of time because they have that inner turmoil that they need to work through. until they realize, okay, every time I do this, I'm getting negativity that I don't want. So maybe I need to respect this boundary to get the positive reinforcement that I'm seeking.

JULIANNA: Oh, that was powerful. Like knowing that response that they're likely to have when you start to set the boundary or start to slowly negotiate and re-negotiate really the relationship is making space for their internal and external reactions and giving it time. That was really powerful. Thank you for sharing that.

PATRICIA: Yeah, absolutely.

JULIANNA: Yeah, one of the things that also comes up is because those responses and potential retaliations may come as you're renegotiating that relationship, it is important to document all your interactions. And so there'll be, you know, things like saving emails between the both of you. If there's any communication that is significant but not documented in something like an email or a memo or whatever, keep your own set of notes and documentation of dates and times and things that were said, because if it were, hopefully it doesn't, but if it were to escalate, you have now a record of the conversations, which likely the leader does not because they may not see anything wrong with what they're doing. So that gives you a little bit of a head up and knowing how the storyline went, being able to assess what part of it was maybe on your end, if at all, but then also having a really clear story of how this wasn't on your end. This was an issue with this particular leader. And now when you bring up that conversation with HR or whoever it is, you have a little bit more evidence.

PATRICIA: Yeah, and I think what also really helps is in most workplaces, people know all the personalities, all the traits, all the amazing and not so amazing parts of the people they work with. So when you need to have that conversation, if it gets to that escalated point, hopefully the people that you're working with in HR will, at the very least, be open enough to hear your side of it. I actually have a case study, like a real case study, where someone was working with a very narcissistic boss who kept attacking her for what she was doing. And She felt like there was no way out of it. Like this narcissistic boss was always, no, it's you, it's you, it's you. And finally this person went to HR and what we decided to do was not really go to complain about her boss, but to seek help. So that actually shifted the relationship dynamic because oftentimes in HR, their hands are fairly tied. Even if they want to help you get out of that situation, within the legal boundaries of their role and within the expectations of the company, there's only so much they can do. So rather than taking the approach of, I need to go complain about my boss, who's a narcissist, they can't do anything about that. But what they can do is document the fact that you've had this difficult exchange. So we decided that she would go to HR to say, this is the feedback I'm getting from my boss. This is the situation. I'm having a really difficult time trying to implement what my boss is telling me to do. Help me. So that, that was an interesting shift to the dynamic with HR because Well, luckily this person was dealing with a reasonable HR person, so that's definitely a plus. But the HR person saw the situation, understood that it was unreasonable, and that what the boss was doing to her was not appropriate. She couldn't change the boss. She couldn't actually help this person. But what she could do is document that this was happening and that this person has gone to HR not to complain, but to seek help. So it showed that she wasn't trying to cause trouble. She was actually trying to solve the situation. Maybe in a wild, situation the HR person could actually help her but knowing that that was unlikely at the very least she got out of it that okay this is documented that it's an issue. Thankfully it didn't escalate to the point where it had to go further than that but at least she knew that if it did escalate at a later time she had already gone to HR.

JULIANNA: Oh, I love that you bring that up because it could become highly political, right? Depending on again, who your HR person is, you know, it says everything we talk about is confidential. Don't trust that every time. Um, but one thing that you mentioned, Oh, what did you say? You were talking about, um, Oh, when you're sharing information, this is, I love that you're talking about, you know, don't go complaining, go to ask for help. And to take that even one step further, as you go to ask for help, know that out of the heart, the mind speaks. And so you want to get your mind and your heart kind of in a peaceful place. Because if you go in a place where you are angry, maybe anxious, feeling attacked, right? If you go in that space, it's going to show. And so you want to go into that space really calm, objective, and making sure that the language that is documented is language that demonstrate that the place you're in is not against your boss, but more of, I have this difficult situation, not a difficult boss, I have a difficult situation, and I just need a little bit of guidance on how to navigate it so that we can all be successful. So it comes off very objective, and that just further paints a more stark contrast between communications with you and communications with the leader that eventually, in theory, will surface to a very clear view of what's really going on.

PATRICIA: Yeah, and I think while we're on the topic of how to go into that conversation with HR, it's also making sure that you're very honest about what you're trying to get out of it. Not necessarily that you're going to march in there and be like, I'm here to make sure that you document this for me, but that you need to truly believe that there might be a chance they can help you, and that you are truly believing that you're going in there to seek help. Because HR folks will sniff out a mile away if you go in there with even that little bit of resentment, like you said, or you're going in there for an outcome that isn't the one that they can actually provide you.

JULIANNA: Yeah. So getting your, getting your questions really clear and making them about something really objective that they, that relate to what HR can actually help on. That is awesome. I like that. Kind of free. pre-decision happening there. Okay. So I know that you and I can just continue and continue on and there's so much more to cover. But if we were to get into the more kind of tactical, short, you know, what are a few ways when you're communicating with someone who maybe exhibits some of these qualities, um, or has taken on some of these behaviors, what are some really quick ways, um, to communicate with the narcissist or person?

PATRICIA: Yeah. Yeah. I think we've covered some of it in terms of like giving them the, sort of the reinforcement they need to feel safe is really important. Some of the classic not using I statements or you statements is really critical when speaking with to someone with narcissism. So focusing on the situation at hand as much as possible. you're never going to get away from them making it about a failure of theirs. If that's where their mind is going to go, that's where it's going to go, but you can at least try your best to steer the conversation to the facts or to the problem at hand. If they go there, it's very difficult to try and bring them back because they're already there and the only thing to disarm them is to basically tell them that's not true. kind of up to you there if you feel like it's an honest enough statement to say that or maybe trying something like, okay, well, everybody makes mistakes. Maybe let's focus on what we can do to either solve this problem or do something differently in the future or something just to shift them out of thinking backwards to what they've done and forwards to what they can do.

JULIANNA: Oh, that's great. Shifting forward. Yeah, that's a good one. Some of the things that come up for me in that area are really objective. So removing the opinion out of your statements, similar to how you said, removing the you and the I and focusing more on team, that type of deal. Focusing on the future, like you said. To me, use of silence is so valuable because every one of us fills in the silence with whatever we imagine in our head. And so let them fill in the silence. And sometimes we, we offer too much when we speak and then comes the opinions and then comes, you know, things that could be misinterpreted. So just staying really factual, um, keeping things short, having a good use of silence. Um, So now that we've got a little bit of this underway, there inevitably are going to be situations where you just, you just need to move on. It's unfortunate, but not everything has a clear cut answer or a magic formula. Right. So for you, what would be those signs that it's time to move on? This is unhealthy. Yeah. What would be those signs to make a decision?

PATRICIA: I think they're similar to a lot of the situations for needing to either leave a job or a boss. And it comes down to, have you honestly tried everything that you feel is ethical and within the bounds of what you're willing to do to make the relationship work? of course you can't factor in anything that they will or won't do because you have no control over that, but have you tried everything and nothing's working to the point where you can't actually do your work or you're just feeling miserable all the time? and like even trying to go into the office or the thought of having a conversation with this person is draining you and makes you want to call in sick. That's probably a really clear sign that you need to do something about your situation, whether it be leaving that boss, trying to get an internal transfer or leaving the company altogether. Going to HR at that point to actually try and do something about the situation is probably a little far gone. I think if you're laying the groundwork, like saving emails and making notes of conversations, it's more protection for yourself in case your boss escalates things to a point where they're on the attack and you need to defend yourself. But if you realize that this relationship cannot work because of their narcissism, you'll feel it. You'll feel the energy drain from you when you think about work. You'll realize that, okay, I've tried all of these things and there's not even a little bit of progress that's being made. I think that's when that difficult decision needs to happen for yourself, unfortunately.

JULIANNA: Yeah. And it's a tough decision to make. And between some thoughts that I had and also what you've been sharing, it sounds like a few really quick signs are impact on your mental health, right? To where you're realizing You've lost your energy, you've lost your motivation. There's things you can do to bring that back, but there's a point, there's that turning point at which it is significantly impacting your mental health. We're talking, you know, stress, breakdown, like you don't need those in your life. And so that's one of them. The other one is being misaligned in values. primarily ethical standards, right? There is a point at which what's happening is just no longer ethical. And in order to manage that relationship, you kind of feel pulled to unethical standards or things that are against your values. It's another potential reason to head out. And then I think the last, I've got two that one came to mind as you were sharing. So I almost think I'm reiterating the great idea you had, but one of them is, you know, there's a point at which, you know, there's a target on your back. This particular person has not only made it difficult for you to work with them, but they are targeting you specifically. You know, if their goal is to make your life miserable or to move you out of the company, to get you fired, to get you demoted, all of these things, right? And they are your leader. It's a really difficult situation to come back from. So if you feel that that target is specifically on you, it is time to start looking or at a different department or a different organization, or just to start building your brand, to start building things out, building connections, because you just don't know what's going to happen. And I think the last one that I feel like we haven't really gone over in this particular topic, this episode, but if you start noticing that your family, your friends, people outside of work are like, what's wrong with, you know what I mean? Like what's going on?

PATRICIA: They're really concerned about you.

JULIANNA: Yeah. They're the ones who see you on a day-to-day and know your, your, barometer, they know when you're at a balanced scale, they know when you're a little stressed, but they get concerned when they see something that is dramatically different from your norm. And that's when you may not notice it. But comments from family and friends may give you an idea that you may be more stressed than than you think. And it may be kind of changing the dynamics, not only at work, but at home. And when one person has that much influence and control over how we are with other people, I think it might be time to start paying attention to that.

PATRICIA: Yeah. And maybe to leave things on not so gloomy of a note, going back to what you were talking about with even if you are somehow finding yourself on as their target, if they're trying to get rid of you, that might not be a terrible thing, because if they're trying to get rid of you, you might be able to turn it around and and gently seek their permission to find work elsewhere in the company. So if they are out for you that much, it's possible that they don't want to do all the work to get rid of you, because trust me, it is a lot of work to get rid of somebody from a company or to shift them from a team. And If you feel like you're on the tail end of that and you're looking at the reality of having to find work anyway, it may be worth having a conversation with them to say, not necessarily anything to do with them and their narcissism, but maybe I'm feeling like it's time for me to find another opportunity. I need a different challenge, something that has nothing whatsoever to do with them. um nothing to do with the work on the team but you're craving for something different something new and to say i i'm not asking for you for your help but just kind of want to see if that's okay with you if i i start looking for work i'll make sure i have give you lots of notice um because i feel like i'm needing this change right now might be a nice way to end things even if you feel like you you don't owe them anything because you probably don't um but but at least again reinforcing that safety feeling with them that this isn't about them you're not going to go badmouthing them to the company if you leave will just kind of help you find a way to somewhere else in the company that you're at without having to throw away all the the reputation that you've built there

JULIANNA: Oh, that's great advice. Thank you for sharing that. That is such a wonderful way to end today's episode because it kind of puts you in a way that you can leverage what seems like a negative situation. And you'll never know how it turns out, right? It could go multiple different ways, but I really can appreciate how you mentioned like this is a time to, we can bring back some of the same concepts, reinforce the positives of having worked there and even go as far as finding one small piece that is honest, where you can say, seeing this particular strength in you has inspired me to go to this other area. And I would love to make that my next change. If you're dealing with someone who has those narcissistic qualities, they are going to love that. If you can put yourself sort of quote unquote on their team, then you will be as much of a winner in their eyes as they are in their own eyes. And so that's one way to negotiate the relationship. Again, as long as it's ethical, according to your values, honest, even if it's hard to find that honest piece, positive piece, everyone has something, some good thing that you can dig around and find and then go off of that. Yeah. Do you have any final thoughts?

PATRICIA: Gosh, we've covered so much. I think I'm good for now. My brain's kind of all over the place with, I think, other topics for difficult bosses that we can tackle in the future.

JULIANNA: I know. I have all these ideas too. And that's why I'm like, okay, we have to bring this down to one topic. And so we're wrapping up today's episode on narcissistic, leaders with narcissistic qualities. But there's other ways and different strategies, sometimes opposite strategies to deal with leaders who maybe have different qualities. So again, remember that, you know, there are all kinds of leaders. The majority are fantastic leaders, but if you happen to be someone who either you know, has a difficult time getting along with your boss, different personalities, or maybe even traits of, you know, maybe that aren't desirable in a leader. We might be covering that in a future episode.

PATRICIA: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.

JULIANNA: Yeah, absolutely. Well, all right, folks, that is it for now.

PATRICIA: And like we said, we'll be back soon with another conversation.

JULIANNA: So in the meantime, be sure to connect with us and let us know what you thought about today's topic.

PATRICIA: Or if there's a specific topic that you want to hear from us in the future, maybe a specific type of bad boss that you're struggling with today. And we'll be sure to drop all of our links for you in the show notes.

JULIANNA: All right. Thanks, everyone. Bye for now.

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