77. Career Planning, Search, and Salary Tips From Jenn Smith, Career Coach & HR Consultant

Patricia Ortega: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back today from an uncommon career to coaching and consulting. Jenn Smith of Flourish Careers Podcast is an absolute rock star. Before she came to become a career coach and HR consultant for heart based professionals, her roots were deeply grounded in corporate America, including 15 years in HR departments at fortune 500 organizations.

So she's here today to share not only her really interesting professional story, but I think I think we can get her to share a little bit of her HR expertise as well. And before we start, I just want to give you a shout out, Jenn, because you and I were both on Mac's list showcasing the top career podcasts of 2024.

So congratulations.

Jenn Smith: Yay. Shout out to us. I love these little celebratory moments. It keeps you going when the grind is there and we all know the work that goes into podcasting. So thanks for the shout out.

Patricia Ortega: Oh my goodness. Absolutely. It's so much fun to, um, to have these moments.

But let's get right into it because you have a really interesting [00:01:00] story. And I think one of the ways that you described it once was I started my career making chips. So tell us about that!

Jenn Smith: That I did. And so, yeah, let me just kind of take you to this moment in time. So, picture this, and this is a pretty defining moment for most people.

So you and your friends are graduating from college, right? It's that defining moment. And I will tell you that some of my friends had landed jobs on wall street at these very sophisticated banks and the relocating to New York City. Meanwhile, I'm packing up a U Haul and moving to a very small unknown town about three and a half hours away from home.

As I get into my first post graduation job, my alarm clock is ringing at 10 P. M. I'm dragging myself out of bed in the pitch dark to get ready for work. Picking out an outfit is easy because I have a uniform, which is steel toed boots, khakis, and a company supplied polo shirt that's about [00:02:00] three sizes too big because they didn't have women's sized clothing in manufacturing. And then of course, you have to wear a hairnet. On the way to work, the drive is quiet because everybody is turning out their lights and going to sleep. Once I'm at work, I get notified that three people called in sick, there's a piece of equipment that's broken. And the main ingredient to have a successful shift, which is potatoes did not arrive on time.

And so. My work shift consists of scurrying around to reschedule each person, track down a grumpy mechanic to fix a machine. And then once the potatoes arrive, rolling up our sleeves, literally shoveling up potatoes in order to help the team catch up. And then my shift comes to an end. The sun is rising and I'm heading home.

Smelling like salt and vinegar or sour cream and onion. So this was my experience as my first job post [00:03:00] graduation. I worked the graveyard shift as a frontline supervisor in a potato chip factory.

Patricia Ortega: Okay, what? I mean, you know, part of what comes to my mind is, okay, normally we're bright eyed and bushy tailed out of our bachelor's degree and we're like, we're going to go change the world, right?

And most folks either go to somewhere that they think is so cool or they stay local, but you decided to go to a rural location, where a uniform three size is too big, right? So tell us how did you decide for this particular career?

Jenn Smith: Well, not much thought went into me.

I went into it to be honest with you. So I was always very career minded in college. I went for business. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I was a frequent flyer in the career services office, just trying to figure out what I could do. And so I remember seeing on the school's internet, a job for a team leader and it was with Frito Lay, which is part of PepsiCo.

And I was like, Oh, PepsiCo, like that's a great [00:04:00] organization. Obviously Frito Lay is a big division under that umbrella. And I thought to myself, it's a team leader. And the job responsibilities were really similar to like when I was a team captain and assistant store manager. And I was like, Oh, you know what?

I think I could do that job. And I think the salary was like 38, 000 a year. And I was like, Oh my God, like I need to make, I thought there was like so much money. I was like, Oh my God, I could totally like do this job and make that money. And I didn't really know anything else and so I applied for the job online and got the phone call and I will tell you, it's a very rigorous interview process.

They brought students, recent grads from all over the country to interview for this role, and I call this a survivor like interview because. We all got there at eight o'clock in the morning. And as the day went on, they were letting people go. And by the end of the day, there was two of us left and that was five o'clock in the afternoon.

And I thought, Oh my God, if I make it through this interview, I have to take this job, you know? And I didn't even know that it [00:05:00] was the night shift. So the two jobs that they had available or was one was the overnight shift potato chip team leader, and the other was weekend sanitation. Now I think I got the better of the deal.

My buddy got weekend sanitation, but. So I really didn't know. It was just kind of like, hey, this happened. I'm going to roll with it and see what happens. And that Sheryl Sandberg quote, I always tell people this. It's something like, if you're offered a seat on the rocket ship, don't ask what seat just get on.

And that's honestly what was going through my mind. I'm like, let me go try this for a year and see what happens. I ended up working in operations for four years, not all on the night shift. But then that work allowed me to transition into HR, which is where I spent the rest of my career. So, totally uncommon, not a normal path at all, but I felt like I really learned how to run a business in that role more than any other job, primarily because when you're working third shift, you're just with a couple other supervisors. So you have to make all the decisions. You're making decisions around cost and safety and quality and staffing, all the things. And trust me, you don't want to be the one [00:06:00] to call your boss at three o'clock in the morning because you can't make a decision. So I felt like, yeah, that's a lot of responsibility.

 But I learned so much so quickly and I'm super grateful for it.

Patricia Ortega: Wow. That is a really neat story. And I love the quote you shared because it brings to life the why, right? You started this story and if I'm listening, my thought would be, oh my gosh, why did she go to work? But then you said it was PepsiCo and I was like, I get the appeal.

I get the appeal. But your quote is so important. You said if you're offered a seat on the rocket ship, don't ask which seat, just get on. And how has that impacted your career moving forward even after that graveyard position?

Jenn Smith: Yeah, that's a great question. And I will say, I think that's good advice early in your career. However, as I've learned throughout the years, I took whatever job came my way, quite frankly, there was very little time where I paused to figure out what was next. It was almost like, oh, I felt so grateful to work for [00:07:00] this company.

I'll do anything, you know, kind of thing. And then I was like, wait, this is really draining my energy. What could I do more of that's going to generate my energy. And so I kind of, I felt like I learned this the hard way in the early years until I really paused. And one of those moments of pause, I'll never forget this moment was when I was working in operations, a senior director came to the facility I was working in.

And he said, so Jenn, what do you want to do with your career? And it was like a deer in headlights. I'm like, Oh my gosh. I- I don't know, but I also knew that operations wasn't for me in the long run. I liked it, but I didn't love it. But what I really loved was the people side of the business. And that's when I paused and I said, Oh, I really love to get into HR.

And so did some work around figuring out how to get into HR. And then that kind of made my career more intentional. I'm still not fully there yet throughout the different roles in different companies within HR. But I think at that point, It was like, okay, the power of the pause and figuring out what's next tied to what I like [00:08:00] doing, what generates my energy tied to my strengths, the things that I'm good at.

And so this started me thinking about career development. And now I use a lot of these stories and these practices in my career coaching, frameworks with professionals and in helping them make changes. So.

Patricia Ortega: Oh, gosh, that was so rich. I don't even know where to begin, but we're going to start with this, the very beginning of your response. And I think we're going to get into more of your coaching in just a second. Cause I'm so curious to hear about that too. And I know people listening are as well.

You talked about fate, like what you said made me think of phases. You said it's good advice early on. There are sometimes things that you're alluding to that's, depending on the phase you're in, so you sometimes need a different mindset. And the mindset you adopted to either protect you from something or to help you succeed in something in one phase of your career can move with you. But then become unproductive in later phases of your career.

And I'm curious, it feels to me like you have thoughts and [00:09:00] insights and experiences around that. I'm curious if you could share.

Jenn Smith: Yeah. I'm glad that you pulled that out. Cause I agree. There are different phases and I like working with early career folks a lot.

And sometimes I see that there's so much pressure. Yeah. You know, I got this degree in engineering and I have to go be an engineer for the rest of my life, or I got this degree in education and I have to be a teacher for the rest of my life. And I actually think that phase one, that early phase of your career is a great time for curiosity and exploration.

And Internships you can even do to start to answer some of the questions and figure out what you really like doing. In college, I think is a great way to gather some of that information, but you really don't know until you get into it. And that's where you'll learn the type of work that you really excel in, what you enjoy doing, what you probably going to learn, what you don't enjoy doing more than what you do enjoy doing.

And all of that's information to make an informed decision for your next best role. So it's the mindset of curiosity early. Taking those learnings and then [00:10:00] thinking about, Hey, what's my next best role? I don't need to do this forever. How can I learn and grow? And how can I take those transferable skills into something that's going to be more fulfilling for me?

And then I think that's probably mid career is like making some more intentional decisions and choices. And then maybe later in the career, it's like, okay, I've learned all of these things throughout my career. How do I want to make a difference? How do I want to make an impact? How can I use all of this wisdom that I've learned along the way to really dig in and make an impact in an industry I'm excited about?

You know, use all of the skills that I've grown to be good at in a role that's going to continue to generate that energy and take me to whatever might be next throughout my life. So that's kind of how I think about it.

Patricia Ortega: You have a framework. I'm like typing furiously as you're sharing your answer.

You have a framework. It almost feels like if I am looking for clarity, it's like you just sat me down and said, okay, great. Um, Let's find what [00:11:00] fits well for you in this season. And you mentioned in the beginning, it's if you're offered to sit on the rocket ship, just take the seat on the rocket ship, right?

Be curious, try out all the things in mid career. This is so valuable. And I don't think enough people talk about it. What is your next best role? So often people come and they're like, I want to be the CEO of my company, or I want to be a VP. Right. And I'm like, okay. Thank you. And it's like, okay, perfect.

Where are you right now? And they're like, Oh, I'm a specialist on customer service. And I'm like, okay, that's a big jump. Let's find some stepping stones. And let's build out a long term plan and then figure out what that short term position is. And then that I want to make a difference in your later career.

There's so much to go off of here. I'm going to start with this one piece and we'll see where this goes, but there's so much richness here I'm curious what your thoughts are when you have clients, if there's someone listening right now and they're like, I really want to work with Jenn, but I'm curious, how do you help me determine, [00:12:00] especially middle career, right?

Because a lot of listeners tend to be like middle to later career. And they're kind of like, ah, I'm like in my forties, maybe fifties. How do I know if I'm in the season to search for my next best role? Or if I'm in the season when I need to look at the impact and the difference and what I hear about a lot is if I need to start slowing down, cause some folks are feeling like the burnout's coming and we're trying to decide, is it the environment?

Is it my habits? Or is it the season of life?

Jenn Smith: I like that. So one of the things I listen for when I meet with folks is trying to understand what's important to them in this season of career. So if you're a mid career and you have littles at home, your values and what's important to you is probably going to be different than early or later in your career.

And so I always like to start from that perspective. So when you think about your values, I break them down into core values and then lifestyle values, because lifestyle is so important. Sometimes I even reverse engineer and say, Hey, like [00:13:00] what's the lifestyle you want to be living right now? And then let's reverse engineer from that because so many times people are at the point of what's wrong here.

What's broken. Why am I feeling like this? And so then reverting back to, okay, let's figure out what's important. And then we can make the decisions from there. And then. I love actually working with folks to figure out what those values are. And then when they come up against a decision, I'll encourage them to go back to those values, like literally writing them down and then go back to those values based on this decision, rate each one of your values.

So , if flexibility is one of your values in this season of career, let's rate this decision. Okay. You're going to be, go be a COO. Let's see how much flexibility you're going to have on a scale of one to 10. And then based on what's important right now. It becomes very eyeopening in terms of what that decision might look like.

And those values will shift over time. It's not written in blood, not written in cement. They're going to shift over time. And so it's important to reevaluate those at different seasons in [00:14:00] your career as well. So that's usually the starting place. And then from there, I'm always listening to for, and I kind of said this before, but what are you interested in?

What kind of impact do you want to make? And that could be big or small. It doesn't have to be this altruistic stuff. It could just be like, Hey, what am I interested in? And that can lead to a potential industry shift depending on where the person is. And then I'm always listening for the type of work, like actual tasks that someone likes doing, and how can we do more of that?

A lot of times people are good at something. But they don't like doing it. So how do we combine what you're good at and what you like doing? And then those organizations that are going to be a fit. So are you more comfortable in a smaller tight knit organization? Do you like being in the sea of 80, 000 employees around the world?

And so really you're uncovering all of those clues and then starting to map that towards a path. And my philosophy is really around this heart based career planning and heart is an acronym, but it's really about alignment. And then knowing that it's going to shift because things are moving so [00:15:00] rapidly in our world of work today.

So I don't know if that makes sense, but-

Patricia Ortega: Oh, it made perfect sense. It spoke to my heart.

Jenn Smith: Oh, good.

Patricia Ortega: I was like, this is, yeah, it's both practical, but also allows you to be a human in the process.

Jenn Smith: Of course.

Patricia Ortega: Which is so, so, so important. So I'm going to give you a heads up. I do want to hear, I know that you and I talked a little bit about you creating some of the recruitment program at Thermo Fishers.

I want to hear a little bit about that, but right before we mentioned that, you were talking about values, enjoying the tasks they're doing. I'm curious what your thoughts are, coach to coach. And I think it would be important for the community to listen in, kind of get behind the scenes of this conversation.

I often meet with clients and, we look at their values and it's very clear what their values are. Then we start going into, okay, let's find your positioning to come up with your branding and then it's like it shifts because that financial pressure, the fear of a potential pay cut, which sometimes does need to happen if they're making a big shift [00:16:00] or, also the worry that if I choose this, then I won't have as many opportunities, right?

What are your thoughts at that pivotal point? When we're about to start the branding, we did all the work on the values. And it seems like the values don't matter. Let's focus on, you know, this other thing.

Jenn Smith: Yeah. I guess what I would encourage folks to do is to try to gather more information.

So what's missing or what's causing that pause? Like, what is it really? Like if it's, oh, I think I have to take a pay cut. Well, do you know that to be true? Go out, let's go out and talk to some people that are doing this job in this industry, in the location you're working and find out, is that really true?

Do the salary. The salary is a big piece because nobody works for free. We know that. But then I also encourage folks to think about, in this season of career, how much is enough? So a lot of times we're just like, we just need more, more, more, but do you really need more, more, more?

What is enough? You know, this too, like when you go from a steady salary to nothing, I'm- starting your own business. [00:17:00] I mean, there's no more, more, more there. You got to figure something out. And so, I encourage folks to think about what is enough and then go back to those values, say, okay, this is what I need to be happy and fulfilled and have that security and knowing what that number is and knowing that that's important.

Nobody out there, you don't wear your salary on your sleeve. You don't wear your salary on your LinkedIn profile. Nobody knows, but you, so it's okay. As long as you have what you're looking for, like, think about that. And then. The biggest piece here is just gathering more information. So if you're nervous about something, what is it you're nervous about?

And let's go get the answer to that question so we can move forward. So it's like tiny steps to break through that fear, that anxiousness or that hesitation.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah, this was valuable. Two things I heard in there is that there's two perception issues that potentially could be going in with all of us.

This is just our human. This is our brain protecting us, right? One is a perceived limit or a perceived need that I can't make less than what I'm making right now. Or my. [00:18:00] life will not be what it is. But there's levers, and if you pull down one lever, another lever goes up. And so let's really look at what exactly what will life look like.

And then the other perception is the perception of what is going on in the marketplace, what these positions pay, right? And so, like you said, getting the facts, so actually digging in, building out your budget, what do you actually need? And then also what is actually the salaries out there?

Jenn Smith: Yes. I love how you pulled that out as perception. So You did a great job there as kind of like a theme because it is there and you can even take that a step further. Oh, what are people going to think if I make this change? Or I'm not going to go to the COO. Like there's so much with perception and it really is.

It's getting the facts. And I work with so many folks that talk themselves out of something before they even try or before they even gather that information. And so that information is so valuable. And then just to take that a step further. When you go get that information, you're going to get it usually from a human.

Hopefully you're going to get it from somebody and you can build a relationship with that person. [00:19:00] And then that person is part of your network and then they'll help you move into whatever it is that you want to, because people genuinely want to help other people. And as long as they know what you're looking for, they'll be able to support you.

So I think by doing that activity of asking the questions and getting the information, you're doing two things. You're getting the information and you're building your network in a really thoughtful way.

Patricia Ortega: Oh, yes, absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up. You do such a good job of bringing in the human factor, but then also here's what practically needs to get done in order to move that human aspect forward.

So thank you for that. Okay. So I'm going to shift a little bit, because while we can talk for hours and hours, we all have schedules. So, I know you and I chatted about, the fact that he built a college recruiting program, which I think is so cool because I was on the other end of that recruiting program.

So tell me a little bit about that and how that led to what you're doing now.

Jenn Smith: Oh, my gosh. I love this. Yes. I don't get to talk about this that much. This was one of my most favorite roles in my corporate career, but I'm going to tell you when I first got [00:20:00] into HR, so this is back early, early four years in operations. And then I moved into HR.

One of my first projects was to develop a regional internship program, and we didn't have one and we just, we needed to start from scratch basically and it was so much fun. And then my second project was to staff, our frontline supervisor roles which is the job I did right out of college. So it was so much fun to go to the local schools and recruit frontline supervisors to do a job that I did.

So I could tell them really what the day in the life was like, especially when you're trying to talk somebody into coming to work second or third shift. It's not that easy. Uh, but we got some great folks that joined the organization that I'm still in touch with today that just had beautiful careers and it's just so exciting to watch.

And so that was kind of the foundation. And I always remembered that experience and how much I loved it. And then I did lots of different jobs, ups and downs, U turns, all the things in HR. And then when I was working at Thermo [00:21:00] Fisher, I noticed an opportunity to build out the college recruiting.

And I didn't have the exact experience other than that initial little stint that I did, but it always stuck in my mind. And when I saw this opportunity pop up, I was like, Oh my God, I hope they will give me the chance to do this. And as luck would have it, they did. And so it was really fun. So we were tasked with building out.

Not only the program, but basically the strategy. And so when I first started in this role, there was one coordinator and I say that it was she was kind of like a travel advisor. So basically like what would happen was someone would call her up and say, hey, um, I want to go to this job fair at X and X school. Can you sign me up and send me a tablecloth?

And she'd be like, sure. And that's what she did. I was like, what? What is happening here? Like, this is not what, this is not strategic. This is not what we do. And so we sat down and said, what are the goals of the organization? And the idea was really that we wanted to bring students in as juniors and seniors, have them work with the organization and then pipeline into either leadership development programs or frontline supervisors or whatever it is.

So we ended up reverse engineering [00:22:00] that goal and saying, okay, these are the schools that have the programs that we're looking for in, let's say engineering or finance. So let's start with intern programs for them to see if they're going to be a fit and then invite them back potentially if they're a junior into a senior year, and then hopefully pipeline into a frontline role. Which to me would be so much nicer as a student or a recent graduate to know the organization and then to be building my career from college versus me going in like, who knows what I was thinking or doing, you know what I mean?

Patricia Ortega: Yeah.

Jenn Smith: So it was really fun. So we picked schools, we built a team, we ended up with five or six recruiters all over the country and we ended up hiring hundreds of students and recent grads into these internships and leadership development program.

Patricia Ortega: Okay. That's really neat.

Jenn Smith: It was fun.

Patricia Ortega: So you're in this position that by all intents and purposes, sounds like a blast. It sounds like you're making a really big impact. I've got to ask the question, why leave such an amazing position?

Jenn Smith: I know, I know. And it was. It was such a good team and all the things. But it was [00:23:00] interesting in that role.

It was really eyeopening too, to see how much help people needed, not just students in recent grads. I mean, we were also hiring MBAs and I could just see the struggle on the other end. So the resumes, the interviewing, the questions they were asking, it just, I was like, there's a disconnect here.

And I loved the work of kind of coaching folks through the process. And I saw the need on the other side. Now this was before career coaching was even a thing. Like it was a thing, but like barely a thing. And so I was like, oh, I wonder if I could use this insider experience and help job seekers on the other side.

So I ended up getting a career coaching certification and then started a side gig with the muse. They're a big career coaching platform. And I got hired as a career coach and I was super excited. And until then. I was like, had this demanding day job and then I'm doing career coaching like nights and weekends and I just saw the energy that was generated in my work when I did the career coaching versus the day job and it [00:24:00] just started to shift my perspective and I thought, wow, if this could be my job, like how cool would that be?

And it was getting to the point also, my corporate career is like 15 years. And I always knew what was next. Like I was super excited. I was like, Oh, I'm going to go try talent management. Now I want to go try this recruiting role. And at that point, I felt like my corporate career was complete.

There was nothing else I really wanted to do. I definitely didn't want to go be in the C suite. It was just too stressful for me. And I always had it in the back of my mind to start an online business. It was in the back of my mind for quite frankly, like 10 plus years that how could I do this?

And I kept watching people be successful at it. And then taking that tiny action with the career coaching as a side gig. I'm like, ah, I'm just going to give this a shot. So it was. December of 2019, 2020 new decade. I was like, Oh my God, this is going to be the best year ever.

Best decade ever. I'm going to start my own business. I was so excited. So I literally ended my corporate career in December of 2019, went into 2020, HR [00:25:00] flourish careers, HR consultant, and a career coach, super excited. Boom, pandemic March of 2020. I literally lost my breath. I was like. Oh my God, what did I just do?

I quit my whole life, you know, and now we're going to go through this chaos. And I remember this moment. I think I heard it like on the radio or something where university of Pennsylvania was telling their students not to come back after spring break. And I was like, OMG, the amount of logistics and like effort to tell students not to come back after spring break.

I was like, something really bad is happening here. And I totally panicked, but then it ended up to be a blessing in disguise because I had so much more time and energy. To support so many other people that were going through job loss, companies closing, rethinking their lives, like all this stuff was happening.

And I had the time and energy and space to help people through all of that chaos. So talk [00:26:00] about divine timing. I don't know, but it really felt like that for my change.

Patricia Ortega: Oh my goodness. Okay. So there's this flurry of change, then there's a pandemic, more change, right? I would love to hear if you don't mind sharing how you have brought in your prior experience and how you started maybe filling some gaps.

I know I came from education and I certainly had some gaps to fill. So I got experience, education, et cetera. But for you, how did you determine what those gaps were? How did you fill them, and bring in all of that HR knowledge that you have into the process?

Jenn Smith: That's a great question.

And the grounding thought that I had was, I know how organizations work on the inside. And I felt like that was going to be really valuable for folks to get hired. And so kind of having that insider scoop, which I want to share a couple things that I think would be helpful [00:27:00] for your listeners there.

Um, but the one thing for me that was really hard, it was a big gap in the beginning was, I felt like I had to have all the answers. So I'm the coach I've been in HR. Like you're coming to me for help. I have to know what you want to do with your career. And that's just not the case. And so it took a while for me to learn how to support and guide without taking all of that on myself.

And to this day, people still come and they want me to tell them what to do with their lives. And that's- no one can tell you what to do with your lives. But we can figure it out together. And so that's where building the framework and asking the questions and, but it definitely took a long time and it was super stressful for me in the beginning when I felt like I had to have all the answers.

I don't know if you've experienced anything like that, but it's really hard.

Patricia Ortega: A hundred percent where when you're a coach, it's like a similar skill in counseling where you are sometimes the wall that emotions and projections and [00:28:00] feelings are thrown at. Like it's all the rewarding stickers, right? Where you get to see the beautiful moments of change, but also there's no one else. Like when I'm grumpy. Yeah. My husband's there and I'm like, I'm just going to be right.

But when you're in the coaching process and I'm talking to you and you're the coach and I'm like, Hey Jenn, I just want you to tell me what to do. I'm so sick and tired of going through this process. I just want clarity and I'm frustrated. It takes everything within us not to feel like it's us, right.

It's just a part of the process. And so, again, it's part of two humans interacting and helping each other. If there is no conflict, there's usually no progress. Yeah, I think that's good.

Jenn Smith: Yeah. Yeah.

Patricia Ortega: Okay. I could talk to you forever, but I love that you mentioned some practical tips.

And I said at the beginning of the episode that we were going to try and pick your brain a little bit. So let's start right where you are, like, what do you have in mind that you think people need to know from your HR experience?

Jenn Smith: Yeah, so there's a couple things, but the first one, especially for job [00:29:00] seekers is I want people to know that when they're in the job interview, applying, whatever it is, networking.

The HR person, the recruiter, the hiring manager, the team, they want you to get the job. I know there's so much pressure that you have to perform, like do all these things to get the job, but they are rooting for you because think about when you've been on a team that was understaffed. It's so stressful.

Everyone's working overtime. You have to fill the gap to get the job done. So think about that when you're applying and interviewing for jobs, that there's a gap on that team that you're going to fill, and this team is rooting for you. They want you on the team. So I recommend to folks to use that kind of mindset as you go through.

And then just to add onto that, use the recruiter. If you're working with an internal and I'm talking like this is inside a corporation, that's this experience that I'm coming at it from. But. Use your recruiter as a resource. So ask questions. If you're not sure who you're going to interview with, ask, if you're not sure how long the interview is, ask, if you want to know what they're going to be [00:30:00] interviewing you on, ask. They want you and trust me as a recruiter.

If you've got 30 jobs, you're recruiting for, and you can help a candidate close one of those jobs so you can move on? They're going to be thrilled and so happy to help you. And it's also going to show that you're proactive as a candidate. Asking those questions and trying to be, be the most prepared. So that's the first thing I would, I would say.

So hopefully that resonates.

Patricia Ortega: Oh my goodness. Yes. It's kind of like I don't think this is the best analogy. I really don't, but I'm going to say it because that's the one that's in my head and I just, we just go with it. Um, it's kind of like when mom and dad are like, Hey, it would be helpful if you cleaned your room and you're like, I don't care.

But then Jordan Peterson says, clean your room and every room in America is clean. You know what I mean? Like, um, and I think you as having firsthand experience and I don't have that experience. And so I think it's so valuable to hear it directly from you who has seen so many people go through this process, that, they want you to win.

Jenn Smith: They do.

Patricia Ortega: So go into it helping them to help you win. Yes.

Jenn Smith: [00:31:00] Exactly. That's exactly right.

Patricia Ortega: All right. So, I get this question a lot and I thought it would be great to just pick your brain a little bit about it. So job seekers always have a hard time with the salary question and I help them triangulate a process.

But I always think I cannot be the person who has the best process. I know I'm not the person. And so asking an HR expert, how can job seekers determine their market value to come up with a minimum fair and ideal salary for a particular position at a company?

Jenn Smith: Yes, I get this question a lot too.

So the first thing I will say is that most recruiters and leaders and hiring managers are going to expect you to negotiate. So don't be afraid to do that. And so the first thing obviously is to do your research. So the three things you want to take into consideration are; the level and the experience that you have, the location that you are going to be working if it's remote.

So some now that things are more and more remote, some of these rules are changing, but if you live in a very high cost of living city, like San [00:32:00] Francisco or New York city or Boston, you need to make sure that you take that into consideration in your salary request. And then making sure that you understand your value, what you bring to the table, your unique experiences that are going to add to that organization.

And this is becoming more and more open because organizations and states have policies now that you have to put the salary, uh, on the job description. And so if you know what the range is going in, it makes it a lot easier to bring that discussion to the table and know whether or not you're going to fit into that.

So. If it's not, if you're in a state where it's not posted or it's not on a job description, or if the range is like zero to a million or something ridiculous like that, then I always recommend asking the recruiter for a range or a budget before you give your number. And when I was a recruiter, in a phone screen, I would say, hey, the salary range for this job is this to this. Is that acceptable for you? Yes or no. Let's move on. Sometimes people won't do that. They'll play hard ball, which is annoying to me, [00:33:00] but you try to get them to give you the range first. And then you know, if you're in the ballpark and you can take those other things I just mentioned into consideration as you're figuring out what that number is.

So that's just some of the insider tips that I would share there, if that's helpful.

Patricia Ortega: Oh, it's very helpful. And I think it's part of what's really helpful is reiterating that fact that, you don't want to share your seller expectations first, because they become an anchor, in multiple ways.

But also the reason why I personally have a conviction that the company should share their transparency first. And I appreciate you for that. Is because And the company at that moment has all the leverage.

Jenn Smith: Right.

Patricia Ortega: Right. And so when you have all the leverage, you also likely not a hundred percent, but likely set a budget.

And so that number is already there versus as an individual, number one, you don't necessarily have the leverage unless you're an individual contributor who's like the expert on a particular topic. But you're also one individual who can make executive [00:34:00] decisions for yourself, right, versus the recruiter and the department don't quite have control.

So sometimes I help clients to use that tactfully, respectfully.

Jenn Smith: Oh, yes.

Patricia Ortega: With appreciation in that conversation to share, you know, I, I know that might be a budget. I tend to be a little flexible, but I look at things holistically. And I also want to learn more about the organization and the role and for us to get to know each other.

But I can't tell you how appreciative I am. And I hope if you're listening, I hope you wrote all those things down. She talked about not only the role and the range they posted, but also the size of the company, the amount of experience you have in comparison to what they need, your location.

And if it's remote, you don't go to New York and expect a New York salary because they are going to take your location to consideration. And then of course your value and what you bring.

Okay. I'm going to ask one more question, but then I'm going to give you a heads up. I also want to learn about how you develop your heart focus process because it speaks to me and I think it speaks to people [00:35:00] listening and I know we want to hear about it.

 But the first question or the last question, base compensation. So many of us look at the base compensation and, you know, we're like, I have to make sure I can make it on my base compensation. I'm not taking the role, but I'm curious. How can a candidate best use all that we've talked about to arrive at their ideal compensation package if the base compensation doesn't quite meet their expectations?

Jenn Smith: Yeah. Good question. You want to take the whole package into consideration. And so again, going back to your values and what's most important in your career at this time. So I'll just give a personal story. There was a time where I was relocating all over the place for my job.

And I really wanted to come back to Buffalo. That's where I'm from Western New York. And so I was interviewing for a job and, I loved the team and I just had this feeling like there is no other time in my career where I will get to work with a team like this. And the role was in Buffalo, the city that I wanted to be living in.

[00:36:00] And the salary was less than what I was making, but because I valued working with a team that I knew that I was going to love. I was going to feel comfortable at work and I was going to be in my hometown. Though that decision to take less than the base salary was the right decision for me during that time.

And so going back again, what do you value right now? Maybe it's flexibility. So maybe the salaries, let's say $10, 000 off of what you were expecting, but you have a ton of flexibility and that's what you need right now because you have littles at home and you need to be there for them.

There's so much that goes into it. The other thing is health benefits are a really big deal. That's one of the reasons I think most people still have corporate jobs is because of health benefits and how expensive it is. Maybe take that into consideration if they have 401k match, that's basically free money.

Also, one of the things, this is like a super insider tip that I share with my community all the time is that sign on bonuses are so easy for companies to say yes to. So if there's a gap in your base compensation, let's [00:37:00] say 10, 15, 000 and you say, hey, I really want to work for you guys.

Like, I'm super excited about this, but there's a gap. Is there any way you'd be able to close some of that gap or that entire gap? With a sign on bonuses with a sign on bonus. I just did this with a client. They said yes, literally on the phone. They didn't even need to think about it. So of course, that's not going to be in your base.

It's not going to evolve over time, but at least it's something for you to consider and something for you to ask for as you're making that decision. So I always say everything is negotiable. So don't hesitate to ask especially if it's going to make a big difference for you in the decision to say yes.

Patricia Ortega: No, absolutely. And that sign on bonus pieces is a, thank you for that insider tip. Because if you think about it, almost immediately after you get hired, sometimes I'm like, Hey, and if you want to work on getting promoted, let's focus on those first 90 days . And so it's like, for people who want to advance quickly, that sign on bonus is really big because it fills the gap while you make your case to maybe you have one year at the slightly lower salary, but then you [00:38:00] come back up and that sign in bonus is there. It's a big help.

Jenn Smith: I just have to mention that too.

I love that you mentioned like the growing with the company, because sometimes, you're in a situation where you might take a role and get your foot in the door, but no, that's not the end game. There's long term potential there. And that's what my mindset is going back to Frito Lay.

I was like, I know I'm just getting my foot in the door and I know this organization is a well run machine and I'm going to grow my career and I'm going to learn so much. And so it's that mentality, kind of getting it in there and then thinking in the long game.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah. It's sort of coaching through strategy, right?

Jenn Smith: There you go!

Patricia Ortega: Yeah. Which I love it. Okay. Everything you shared so far, I can feel like the heart focus behind it. Like you said, pull back the curtain. How have you developed this heart focus process and how does it impact clients?

Jenn Smith: Yeah, thanks for asking for this and that really it's, it started out more of this repeated story that I was hearing for folks and that I actually lived myself around work taking up our [00:39:00] entire day and not feeling fulfilled and to the point of burnout and exhaustion and sickness and all of these things.

And it just got to the point where I was like, Oh my gosh, like we're spending a third of our lives at work. Like we have to make it in alignment with who we are. And there's so many expectations out there from parents and well intended expectations, society, social media, all of these things. And so the philosophy is rooted in you. So what do you want out of your career, regardless of what anyone else says? So what is close to your heart, grounded in your core and lifestyle values right now, and then it just grew from there.

And the acronym actually, the H stands for heart centered. So you're making decisions that are aligned to you and your values.

The E is energizing. So we're doing work that's lighting us up. So I think about industry equals impact or interest. Energy. So like when you think about the role, it's going to generate your energy to move forward. So H is hard centered. E is energizing. A is agile. So we must be willing to [00:40:00] shift and adapt in this world of work because things are changing so rapidly.

So having that mindset, like, take the pressure off. This isn't forever. I'm going to learn and grow. The R is rooted in rituals. So the R has evolved over time, but I'm a big fan of rituals and the T is tiny action, which means just taking one tiny step every single day or consistently to make a change happen or to grow and develop in your career.

And the ritual that I always mentioned to folks is it's called five minutes to flourish. And so this is how I've made every single change, every single big project, starting a podcast, starting a business. Everything was just spending five minutes before my day got crazy on one tiny thing that was going to drive me forward.

And that's how I built the momentum. And those five minutes really adds up over time. And before you know it, you've made a change and you have a framework. And you're moving forward. So that's a little bit around the kind of the philosophy, the acronym and what it's rooted in.

Patricia Ortega: Okay. This is awesome. It's [00:41:00] like each piece is a part of the larger puzzle when it comes to navigating life transition and when it comes to behavioral changes, right? All those transformative pieces. Okay. I know there's people who are already thinking, okay, how do I work with Jenn? So tell us, how do we find you?

I know you've got a podcast. Like we said, it's on Mac's list. So tell us all about that.

Jenn Smith: Thank you so much. Yeah. So, my website is flourish. careers and, I'm on Instagram at flourish. careers. I'm on LinkedIn, Jennifer Smith, career coach. It's kind of hard to find, uh, because there's a lot of Jennifer Smith, but maybe if you search Jennifer Smith flourish careers, that would be helpful.

And then my podcast is the flourish careers podcast. So thank you so much for mentioning that.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah, absolutely. And I'll put a link to your LinkedIn. I know personally connecting with someone is, especially when you hear them on a podcast, it's like, Oh, now I'm connected to her. Right. So I'll put that link in the description.

 All right. Any final words?

Jenn Smith: Um, I guess final word would be around change. So we've talked a lot about change and making [00:42:00] changes. And I guess just like one more insider tip is that businesses change and. Make different decisions all the time. So if you're in a situation where maybe you're super excited about a certain company, but you fell short during the interview process and it didn't work out, just know that inside a company changes are happening all the time and you never know.

So I always encourage folks. to stay connected and you never know, like you might've been a runner up for a job. And then all of a sudden they need to, and so they're calling you. And so I think it's just really important to know that changes happen. You're never going to know everything that's going on inside an organization.

So first don't take it personal, but then also stay connected in your network and building your network in that way is gonna do wonders for you as you move through your career.

Patricia Ortega: Love those last words. Thank you so much for sharing those. Thank you for everything you shared throughout today's episode.

It was jam packed. It was just full of the human perspective, the practical perspective, some great tips. So again, thank you for coming on and sharing everything.

Jenn Smith: Thank you, Patricia. [00:43:00] And I just have to say your community is very lucky to have you. You are such a joy to talk with and so easy to connect with.

And I just appreciate that. So thank you.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah. Thank you very much. And everyone listening, thank you so much for joining us today in this conversation. Know that we love you, praying for you, and we'll see you on the next one.