78. Elevated Leadership: How to Prepare For And Address Public Conflict

 [00:00:00]

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Uncommon Career or the Daring to Succeed podcast, depending on where you're joining us. I'm Patricia. And I'm Juliana. And we're here for another co hosted episode of Elevated Leadership.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: In these episodes, Patricia and I look at the two sides of a career move or situation where I'll look more at the strategic execution.

Patricia Ortega: And I'll focus on the emotional intelligence strategies.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: For today's episode, we're going to be talking about managing public conflict as a leader. Interesting topic, right? Yes, I cannot wait because having worked in leadership for several years in a corporate environment, uh, I think people like to think that all the leaders get along and we're all in sync, but that's just not the case.

And those conflicts come up. a lot. And, uh, there are some leaders who are rather aggressive and have no [00:01:00] shame in airing all their dirty laundry for everyone to see.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah, I always think anywhere there's people, there's going to be conflict. Unless you're twins, which sometimes it's lovely, but sometimes it's actually the opposite.

It's actually worse. Um, but yeah, anywhere there's people and there's You know, resources, you know, competitiveness, different ideas. It doesn't have to be about this against that. It could be just different ideas or, you know, people are passionate about the work that they do. Um, there's a lot of, you know, seeding ground for potential conflict, which could be good.

It could have a great outcome. Um, but it's not always fun in the middle.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: It isn't. And you bring up a good point because I think sometimes conflict is even just A different way of working. Um, like I think back to a leader who was senior to me, and she was talking about how, um, she actually preferred working with a different [00:02:00] director because she would call her out in public in a meeting.

And I found that so fascinating because it's like, oh, and she's like, yeah, because you seem to always want to take things offline and like discuss it later. But no, I want to discuss it right there, right then. And you should feel like as a leader, you should feel like you can challenge me. I'm like, okay, I think I can do that with you.

I don't know that I'm going to change my whole style. But just even with that difference where I definitely prefer to have those conflicts. In private so that, especially like in front of a large group of non leaders, it doesn't seem like your whole team is disjointed, or you're just like in this like shouting match, right?

Patricia Ortega: Yeah, yeah.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Um, where her preference was, no, let's air it out, let's figure it out and let's move on.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah, definitely. Here's the piece that is so important. We often make assumptions based on our [00:03:00] worldview, our past experience, our culture even. So especially if you're going to be, you know, running a team across the world, right?

The expectations are very different. Say for example, I don't know, in the Philippines and they are in India or in Mexico than they are in Japan. And so what one person might think as helpful and respectful to take the conversation offline and private. Another person might say, well, that's disrespectful to me because we're not having this peer to peer conversation or whatever it might be.

So part of it is culture. Part of it is personality and just preference. And I think it's helpful to be able to have different types of conflict with different people. But in order to do that, you have to know, what those folks' preferences actually are, because if you assume it could go the opposite of what you're thinking.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah. And you talk about cultural differences in managing conflicts. And I think you've touched on it a few times as well, where the type [00:04:00] of conflict makes a difference too, and how you approach it, because there's some conflict that's good and can birth like new ideas or a different way of doing the work, where there are also interpersonal conflicts where it's very obvious that there's an underlying problem that's causing two people to not get along or for one person to be on the attack with the other.

Patricia Ortega: Oh my gosh, you just opened up a whole can of worms there, right? So I think the one that's a little bit trickier.

is that interpersonal communications, right? And there's two sides to it. And I'm hoping we can come back to touch on the other side of different ideas, right? Um, but oftentimes I say this all the time that we judge other people based on their impact on us, but we judge ourselves based on our intent. And what is interesting is in work environments and sometimes at home too. But in work environments, we tend to see conflict as a negative [00:05:00] thing.

And so because we see conflict as a negative thing and because we've been, you know, I'm going to say we've been kind of hurt by that other person, whether they said something that made us feel less than or made it seem like our idea was disregarded or flat out was just kind of rude, right? We make assumptions as to why they did that.

And I was listening actually to, oh, I don't know what else, but I was listening to a video. And it was this woman going over you know, her employees and how one employee said, he doesn't respect me, he doesn't do what I say. And she was the leader. And she was like, you know, it's because of this and this and that.

So she has all these ideas of how that's a bad person and he's attacking her specifically. Well, this person who was above that leader, she went to the guy and she was like, listen, what's going on? Like something's going on. Right. And he was like, she's really mean to me. I avoid her altogether.

It's not that I'm not doing what she says I, I do it. I just avoid her cause she's mean to me. And [00:06:00] so literally one person thought the other was being disrespectful. And the other person was like, I just don't understand her communication styles, what it really came down to because she was this way with everyone.

And it was just, it was a communication style. Now there's things she could work on. It sounds like I'm sure as it is for all of us, but that just goes to show that when something happens, we then have a perception about the other person and it's kind of like we put those glasses on. If they are a mean person, if they're rude, if they are, if they made one comment in the very beginning, we put those glasses on and it's almost like for the rest of the time they're there until we actually address that conflict.

We're building this caricature to be more and more of an extreme of that, that thing that we saw at the beginning. And I think a lot of teams lose quite a bit of productivity because we have those interpersonal conflicts that are unspoken and almost under the radar, even for us sometimes.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah. And it, it's so [00:07:00] true because Kind of, I've been thinking about this in terms of what if I'm a leader and I'm stuck in conflict, but you're so right, being a leader and having to manage that conflict on your team is really delicate because there's always those two sides of the coin, right?

And there's three versions of the story. Person ones, person twos, and the truth.

Patricia Ortega: Yes, so true.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: And like, having to manage that, especially if let's say it's in a team meeting and it's this heightened, emotional state between two people kind of trying to figure out how to work with each other.

It can be really tricky figuring out as a leader, how do I step in and give them enough space to try and resolve it, but also not drag down the entire team because these two people aren't getting along either long term or in the moment Because that can really have a huge effect on the team where not only is it just [00:08:00] those two people, but the rest of the team can either isolate themselves from those two people or start taking sides and then you've got like a whole mess to have to deal with where you might have a fractured team or, um, just those two people are, are isolated from everyone else because they can't get along.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah. And this is where that strong leadership comes in, right? It does- strong doesn't necessarily mean you have this really strong personality and you put your foot down and you know, um, but it's more strong leadership and being able to take yourself outside of the situation, even if internally you're leaning towards one person or leaning towards the other.

It's, it's actually looking at the broader and saying, what's the right move right now for the entire team who's witnessing what's happening? Where's the common ground? What can we agree on? Um, and how do we move forward so that both people feel valued and also can, you know be productive and be proud to be a part of this team.

You said something that I thought oh, that's gonna hit a spot. [00:09:00] You talked about our emotions on high alert, right? Our emotions drive us I'm going to be honest. You might be listening and you might be like, Nope, not me. I'm totally logical. I'm analytical. My friend. If you are a human, you are driven by emotions.

The difference is some of us wear emotions more on the surface and can feel them and are really aware of them. And some of them, some of us, maybe the emotions are deeper down and maybe they don't affect us quite as much, but they are there and they do drive our behavior. So, being aware of what your emotion is will drastically, reduce how your behavior, um, expresses itself. But that's just part of the equation and I'm sure we'll, we'll come back to that. But I was actually curious, um, Juliana, to ask you about the other side, right? There's that interpersonal conflict, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the conflict when someone's trying to arrive at a new and innovative idea or, [00:10:00] you know, that conflict that's not related to a deep personal disconnection.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: First of all, back to what you were saying, it does cause a lot of emotion. And there's also a lot of change management. That's really tricky because again, going back to common phrases, I don't remember the exact phrasing, but there's something about everybody wants change, but they don't want to change.

Right, they want the situation to change, they want everyone else to change, but they themselves don't want to change. And that's why you do see so much conflict when we're trying to change the way we work, because the people who are accustomed to a certain way of working, even if it doesn't work well for them, and they've been complaining about it for years, if something changes, it's going to upset their whole world.

I think back to like very early in my career when, I was in data entry and [00:11:00] one of the complaints of the team was, Oh, this is such boring work. It's just so tedious and repetitive. They should really automate it or something. And, uh, not very long after that, they decided to offshore. And take that lower level work away from the staff in Canada and- and move it elsewhere, where it's cheaper, but also does address the concern that the staff had, which is they're not utilizing me for my brain. Like I don't, I, I can do more for the company. And despite the fact that they asked for it, when we were trying to move that work overseas, there was so much resistance. It's very similar to what we're seeing with AI right now with people being like, Oh my God, we're losing our jobs.

AI is going to take over. Everything was the same conversation when offshoring was happening, where everybody was just like, Oh my God. And management's like, but you've been complaining. You don't want to do this tedious work. So now we're taking [00:12:00] away the work that you said you don't want to do. And what, like, how do, how do we move past this?

Because the decision has been made and it's going to happen. But you're saying no to something that you've asked for, for a really long time. And I think that's just a different type of conflict that leadership needs to deal with. That's, again, very highly emotional, strategic in terms of the business, but trying to figure out how do you approach it with the staff, and how do you talk to them about, well, here are the opportunities that you have in place of the work that you've asked us to take away, that we are taking away and is going to go away, but here's what your career could look like instead.

Patricia Ortega: Oh my gosh. Okay. As you were talking, I thought we already have another topic, right? Change management is such, it's such a beast, right? Because there's everything from, of course the logistics and the [00:13:00] practical, but then also like the human component of, you know, how do we get buy in? So that this is adopted.

That's a, it's huge, you know, and then shifting, not just the adoption, but then also the change in habits, the change in behavior, like behavior is difficult to change. And as a big organization, it takes a lot. So we'll leave that right. That thought I had for another, another episode, but you know, part of what that brings about is the change, right? When people are going through and discussing new ideas, new means change. And I think this is why those moments are tough, even for people who really highly value and respect each other as colleagues. When we present something, it is so interesting, I almost imagine, right?

 Like a heat map. There we go. Yes. If you were to put a heat map over a conference room full of people when they're discussing new ideas, right? Imagine that there is a person who says, Hey, I have a great idea. That heat map lights up because they've [00:14:00] got emotion because they're excited to present their idea in that.

And it's also a little bit of a social risk. Will people like my idea? Will my idea be shut down? So at the same time that they are excited and they feel almost, it could be even be a sense of elation. Like, Oh, I've got it. Right. There's at the same time a different emotion that's sort of, um, I guess it's like that not a negative side, but like a potential, right?

It's a vulnerability of I'm taking a risk as I share this new idea. So that imagine that on what side of the table at the heat map as that's happening, someone else starts glowing, right? Because even though they're not moving, this is a thing you're in the meeting, they're not moving. They're not hardly even blinking, hardly even breathing.

Okay. But you can probably see on their heat map, their emotion is rising because one of two things. You could have multiple people. One person's emotion could be rising because they think, Oh, that was my idea. I didn't get to share it. You know, Oh my gosh, how am I going to share it now without sounding like I'm stealing from, you know, and all these ideas come into our [00:15:00] mind, all these thoughts, a completely different person.

Could be lighting up with emotion for a completely other reason. So one's potentially like, Oh no, what do I do? The other one is, Oh, that is a great idea. It goes really well with my idea. And so let me support it and let me, right. And a completely different person could be pissed off because they're like, your idea means my position is gone.

And we then walk that idea to our deepest fears and concerns. Right. And so there's all these emotion, you know, all these people that have these different emotions on the heat map and you don't quite know how it's going to play out because you don't know how people are going to behave.

And so just, just being cognizant of that. No matter who you are in the room, whether you're the person listening, the person sharing the idea, the leader taking a look, facilitating, no matter who you are, it's helpful to just sort of, you know, share, but also keep an eye and have empathy for what else is going on in the room that could make your communication more [00:16:00] effective.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah, and as you were kind of painting this picture, I could actually be in the room that you put together. And I think, like, if I, if I look at how I would attack that from a strategic standpoint, it's, it's really understanding all the players in the room before you even step into it. Right? Like, with any, with any situation, let's say it's a set meeting and the purpose of that meeting is to come up with new ideas or even if it's just, Hey, we're, we've got a meeting and either you or someone else comes up with this idea, you really need to understand who is there and what are their priorities?

What are their fears? What's driving them? What's happening in their world right now to know sort of how will everyone react? Because once you know how they can react, then you can start to shape [00:17:00] the conversation and lead it into the right directions. Like you can't stop the conflict.

It's going to happen, but you can at least anticipate it. And be prepared to address the conflict that that's going to arise, like one strategy I used to do for myself was kind of imagine that room and imagine that conflict and say, Okay, are there people I need to talk to before the conflict even arises to deal with the conflict, but not there in the room publicly, like if we're thinking about dealing with public conflict.

One tactic is to anticipate it. And bring it into, if you're not a person who, who enjoys public conflict, bring it into a safer space that you can control, have it out with them, deal with it, diffuse that situation before it becomes one that you can't manage.

Patricia Ortega: Oh my gosh. That was so, talk about practical [00:18:00] execution.

Okay. So you just basically, let's just lay it out for people. So what you said is have individual conversations with people who may be not. may not find that idea appealing, right? And also, I mean, I imagine, especially if, you know, sometimes we, we have this idea that you can be a leader, um, if you're extroverted, but not if you're introverted, that's not true at all.

Right. And so let's say, for example, um, you are a little bit more reserved. You like having the one on one conversations more public, um, conflict is not as appealing to you, or you don't feel as confident and comfortable doing public conflict and having it out like... your colleague or your teammate mentioned before, um, but being able to have conversations with each individual person, depending on how large your team is, of course, to a read the room, right?

Get the temperature on how people are doing. Diffuse any negative situations, but also further fuel those [00:19:00] champions who are going to speak up for it. So that when you go into the meeting, you go in there almost knowing kind of what's going to, not what's going to happen, but you, you're primed right for the conversation.

Um, that was so good. I just, I had to. I had to like stop for a second and reiterate that for myself and maybe for some other folks who are listening to, if you're listening and, and you got it on the first try, then you know, my bad. Um, so you also were sharing, um, and you know, maybe we can go on forever, but looking at the time we probably can go into, you know, some specific things you can do or some specific things to remember.

But you were sharing kind of how you communicate the, um, the change, right? And what it reminds me of. Is how we can use branding principles, which is again, a whole other topic for the day, but how you can use branding principles to communicate persuasively and [00:20:00] think about, like you said beforehand, how am I going to communicate this so that it speaks to my audience and so that it's an appealing piece to my audience, like which pieces.

And, you know, sometimes I talk to folks and they're like, Oh, but that's inauthentic. I want to just say what I'm going to say. And I'm like, No, no, no. But there's ina, there's inauthenticity as in, I don't believe what I'm saying. Mm-Hmm. . And there's inauthenticity in terms of, I feel inauthentic when I say this and it's all about perspective.

And to me there's a big difference between, I don't agree with the words coming out of my mouth and I have simply prepared the words that are going to come out of my mouth. Um, so anyways. you know, what you said brought, brought so much up. And, um, I just thank you for sharing that because that was really good.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah. And maybe just kind of wrapping up that thought back to one of your common, um, phrases about how it's about, what do you always say about the intent of the person [00:21:00] versus our intent?

Patricia Ortega: We judge or, you know, yeah, we judge people by their impact and ourselves by our intent.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Exactly. So kind of flipping that right around and tying that back into what you were saying about applying personal branding to the messaging.

A lot of the times when we're sharing ideas or we're dealing with conflict, we're saying the things that we want people to hear, not what they want to hear, which is, I think some people sometimes think I play on words a little too much, but there is a very specific nuance there, because let's say...

I don't know. Let's pretend the two of us are in a meeting and we're arguing about something.

Patricia Ortega: Because we always are.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Because we argue so much with each other. Um, but let's say you're saying something and it's aggravating me and I disagree with it or whatever. to say something to be [00:22:00] heard, I would be saying what I want to get across to you.

But that may not diffuse the situation. That might just make it worse. If, if your intent is to diffuse the situation, you should be saying what the other person wants to hear or needs to hear to come down from that elevated state. So let's say I, I recommended a change and you're freaking out because you think that means your job's going to go away.

Me telling you, well, that's not true and giving you like a list of all the things that you could do? In that moment it's probably isn't going to help. Because you're already, you're not in a mindset of, oh my God. Look at all this opportunity. Your brain is already thinking she's trying to get rid of my job.

What does this mean? What a terrible person. I can't believe she's doing this to me. What did I ever do to her? That's probably like some of the jumble that's going in your head. If you're worried about losing your job, but that person probably. Needs [00:23:00] to hear is more. Oh, I didn't realize that even if it's not true So that they feel they've been heard and say tell me all the ways that you think this will remove your job Mm hmm and and kind of shift them back into a mindset of problem solving So that they're they're given space to voice what they need to hear and Rather than just arguing back and forth with them about yes, it is.

No, it's not. Yes, it is. No, it's not because you're just not going to get anywhere with that.

Patricia Ortega: That is so good. So you're talking about small things you can do.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah.

Patricia Ortega: To not change the situation, but help shift the perspective and shift the mindset. Um, I think perspective is a better word for that. Change the perspective so that they see it from, you know, they, they see it how it's going to benefit them or how it, um, [00:24:00] is not going to be a negative impact, you know, assuming that that's accurate.

Right. Um, gosh, this is such a good conversation. Okay. So I, I see our timing here and I'm thinking. I'm, I feel like, you know, um, if I'm listening to this, I would want to know, okay, give me like some, like, boom, boom, boom, right? What are some things that you would recommend to do if you're in, you know, you're about to go into, or you find yourself right now in the middle of some public conflict?

What are the top, like, maybe two or three things that you would recommend?

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah. So I, I think the first thing is. Make sure sort of the proactive thing to do, because you're probably not listening to the podcast as it's happening. Hopefully not, um, is to kind of get to know your coworkers a little bit more.

You don't have to cozy up to them and know everything about them, but just even some of the basics like, How long they've been working in a [00:25:00] role, what their objectives are, are they looking for a promotion? Are they happy with what they've got? Just something so that you understand how a situation would look from their perspective.

And then when you find yourself in that moment of conflict, that will help you understand, Okay, is this a person who's more open to hashing it out? Am I a person that's okay with hashing it out? And figuring out. Okay, is this something that we can take offline? Because that, especially for me as an introvert, that's always my preference is it, it's just too elevated of an emotional state for me to be in with all these people watching.

Um, and then having a backup plan for if it's not, what's something you can do to diffuse the situation, right? Even something as simple as, oh, I never realized it could be seen that way. You're not admitting any truth or falsicity to the conversation. You're just saying, I [00:26:00] didn't realize someone else could think of it that way.

Let me think on that a little bit and we can have that conversation again. So you're kind of validating their emotions without admitting that it's a bad idea that you've raised or that it shouldn't happen. And that at least buys you a little bit of time to figure out, go back, think about it and see how can I approach this person again?

And deal with the conflict.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah. Those alone, if you did nothing else. That alone would, you know, save and benefit the relationship long term, but also help you in the short term.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah.

Patricia Ortega: That's awesome. That's awesome.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: And what about you, Patricia? How would you, what would you say are some good things for people to do if, especially if they're dealing with a lot of internal turmoil in the midst of, that public conflict.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah, you set that up perfectly for me. I was actually, yeah, I was going to go towards those inward behaviors. You know me well. Um, yeah, I thought, you know, start with you. Right? The [00:27:00] only thing we can control is ourselves. And so I did kind of think of two things. I thought inward. And then outward.

So kind of inward perceptions, thoughts, feelings, emotions, like really get to know yourself. Um, and some questions you can ask for that are, you know, what emotion am I feeling right now? Um, and especially if, if it's a conflict, right, there's a worry, a fear, a vulnerability, and these are things that we maybe don't always like to acknowledge.

And so some questions that might make that easier because I, in the middle of conflict, I'm like, I'm not vulnerable. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm ready to go. Yeah. Come on. Taking my earrings off. Right. Um, but just ask yourself questions like what is the worst possible outcome that can come from this? What, you know, sort of like kind of forcing you to put on the table, what's this really about?

Right. Um, because if you put it on the table, you can then objectify it and challenge it and say, is that actually going to happen? And if it is, [00:28:00] because sometimes it is, I was in an organization once where, um, we were changing from one wing to another. And so what that meant is, well, you know, let me give you a little bit more detail.

I was in higher education and we were in one wing with that focused on one area. And we were about to, I think it was the academic wing and we're going to be changed to student services wing. Well, it was significant. It wasn't like, Oh, I feel like this is going to happen. No, there was the major change that was going to happen.

And it was going to impact us in a lot of different ways. And so sometimes that, that is- is a real change that's happening, but the emotion and the thought behind it, what it means for me can be the piece that's maybe a little bit heightened. Uh, so getting awareness around what's actually going on, what could actually happen and what parts of this is real and what parts of it is not, um, that's your self management.

The next thing is kind of awareness of others. So empathy. So, you know, looking at that heat map in the [00:29:00] room and seeing where are other people and trying to use that information, right? So once you have that inner part, self awareness and empathy, then it's like time for the outward part. And that's where, you know, things like, um, pay attention to your posture.

Um, this is a horrible example, but I think you can get a picture in your head. Okay. But you know how, I don't even want to use it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm not talking about you. Let's just say I'm talking about me. But I have these two wonderful doggies.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: They're

Patricia Ortega: so sweet. But when I'm walking down the street with one of them's a sweetheart, he's never going to do anything.

He's just, he's always the beta, but the other one is small. He's like a Chihuahua, but he's not, he's a cool doodle, but he's small and he's very much like I'm the alpha in all the world. Right? So we're walking by another dog comes. And my sweet dog all of a sudden has this very aggressive stance and they tell me don't pull his leash.

If he's not like charging, let him have his [00:30:00] space. Because if I pull his leash and he looks aggressive because he's pulling back, then the other dog is going to take that as aggression and then come after him. And so, um, that's again, horrible, but that's what came to my mind. Your body language can signal to other people if you are in aggressive mode, if you are, and it might be aggressive mode, but it might be that your body language goes inward, right?

Where you might share your opinion verbally, you're saying one thing, but physically you're saying, you know what, don't worry about it. You know, just go with what you're and you kind of give out on the fight. So just maintain open body language, but not aggressive body language. So basically take up a little bit of space, uh, maybe lean in to understand, nod your head, those kinds of things.

Um, without necessarily invading someone else's space. So it's one thing to take up your space. It's another thing to reach over the table and start waving your hand, right? Um, and those are exaggerations, but yeah, I would, I would do that. I would use [00:31:00] those I statements, right? I feel as though every time we do this, this seems to happen.

And I'm concerned that this might happen, right? As opposed to you always do this and this is going to happen because you did it. Right. And then here's the biggest one. I think I'm going overboard here, but here's the biggest one. Focus on the issue, not the person. So just be really like, this is what I would focus on the most is like, When you speak, speak about the issue.

This decision would mean boom, boom, boom. This change would mean boom, boom, boom, instead of focusing on that person. Lots of stuff. So many tips. There's a lot there.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Well, this was such an amazing conversation and I feel like we've got so many more topics for next time. Actually, I think every time we talk, we've got so many more topics for next time.

Patricia Ortega: We could have literally a marathon, a Netflix or podcast marathon.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Well, if you are in the midst of some public conflict right now or thinking about the next [00:32:00] time that might happen, hopefully all those tips can help you and we'd love to hear from you on whether they are helpful to you, if you've tried other things that have worked really well for you.

Um, just be sure to connect with us on LinkedIn and we'll drop our websites in the show notes as well. And we look forward to talking with you again next time.

Patricia Ortega: All right. We'll see you soon.

Julianna Yau Yorgan: Bye.