82. Elevated Leadership: Using Persuasion To Influence Up

[00:00:00] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Welcome to the Uncommon Career or Daring to Succeed podcast, depending on where you're joining us.

[00:00:12] Patricia Ortega: I am Patricia.

[00:00:13] Julianna Yau Yorgan: And I'm Juliana.

[00:00:15] Patricia Ortega: And we're here for another co hosted episode of Elevated Leadership, Balancing Emotional Intelligence and Strategic Execution.

[00:00:22] Julianna Yau Yorgan: In these episodes, Patricia and I look at two sides of a career move or situation where I'll look more at the strategic execution.

[00:00:30] Patricia Ortega: And I'll focus on emotional intelligence strategies.

[00:00:33] Julianna Yau Yorgan: For today's episode, we are going to be talking about persuasion and influence. And I am so excited. I know we had a little like free chat about this because it's such a big topic and I can't wait to get into it because I know Patricia, you were saying that like managing up is such a big topic for you and your clients right now and I'm seeing the same.

[00:00:56] Maybe do you have like an example of something that's going [00:01:00] on right now, or a common situation with managing up and trying to persuade your boss about something?

[00:01:06] Patricia Ortega: Yeah, I mean there's examples. Almost week to week. And I just had a conversation with, uh, Roberta Matuson. So that's also an episode, but, managing up is one of those things where I constantly hear, I'm asked to do something, but I'm not given the resources.

[00:01:25] That's probably the biggest, you know, or I'm given a project that feels impossible to do. I don't have what I need. And the leaders above me who are giving me the project are making assumptions about what I have in terms of time and resources, right? And this happens, especially when you have multiple different leaders and multiple teams and people that are cross functional, right?

[00:01:46] If you're in a matrix organization, this happens a lot as well. And so influence is incredibly important because when you're managing up, you don't have authority, but you can still influence and you can still persuade people. And [00:02:00] so that's what we're talking about today.

[00:02:02] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah. And I love that example you gave because it-

[00:02:05] I think it works for so many people on so many levels because we're always given these little side projects that are outside of the core work that we do. And it's often pretty high stakes, right? Like if they're choosing you to get this thing done, they've done it for a reason and they're watching to see if you can get it done.

[00:02:23] So if you don't have those resources, it can be really tough.

[00:02:27] Patricia Ortega: Yeah. And it's also very, what is the word? Um, Defeating right to be given a project. That's not going to work. And then also at the same time feel like you don't have a voice to speak up to make that project work to make the tweaks that are necessary for your team to carry that out.

[00:02:45] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah, so maybe what we can do is start with some basics. I know I've got some tricks up my sleeve and Patricia you do too. And you had some great ones. So I'm going to let you start first and then maybe I'll add on to [00:03:00] the basics.

[00:03:00] Patricia Ortega: Yeah, no, absolutely. A lot of the, the work that I do is like, okay, let's get in the right mindset first before anything else happens.

[00:03:08] It's figuring out, you know, The piece that folks want to start with is tell me the tactic, tell me the strategy so that everyone listens to me. I'm like, well, there's some work in the back here that has to happen first. There's some planning, right? And it starts with figuring out your message, right?

[00:03:22] What is your message? And are you worried that you are not influential? Is that the big worry? Or is the big worry that this project won't work? And so that's the first layer that sometimes we want to be influential to be influential, but sometimes we have something that we feel really strongly about. We know is the right way to go.

[00:03:42] Kind of, you know, you watch on, on TV, there's like a doctor show and the doctor's like, I know this is what's going to save the patient. Right. So if you know, This is the right move. That's the place to come out of, because there is a difference between that. And I want to be persuasive for the sake of being persuasive.

[00:03:59] So [00:04:00] that preparation involves looking at yourself and I always go internal external. It's just an easy way of looking at things. You start with yourself and you say, okay. Do I have my message? Do I know my message and why it's important to buy into this message or to this plan logistically and logically more than anything else?

[00:04:19] Is that there? Does the data back it up? Does the plan makes sense for not just me in my eyes, but also through the other different perspectives of the leaders that will be presented with this plan. Then it's, you know, emotionally, am I bought in? Is it? Is this something that other people can buy in as well emotionally?

[00:04:37] And so this talks about aligning with values, both individual values. Maybe there's a leader who is really excited about one aspect of their plan. Now you have to shift their emotion and excitement to why your plan also helps them carry out maybe something that they're excited about. Um, and then there's also credibility.

[00:04:57] Now credibility is like, okay. What [00:05:00] have I done like this that has been successful that I can sort of, um, piggyback off of right and say, you know, I've done this multiple times in my past. These have been the outcomes and these are the outcomes that I'm planning on. So that's like the internal. And then you have the external of looking at the landscape and saying, okay, who are the leaders that are involved in this decision?

[00:05:20] Um, Who are the leaders that I will be speaking or presenting to, but then you and I were talking, right? And there's always something behind that. And so not just looking at the person who, visually or seemingly is going to make the decision, but looking at the influencing factors behind that too.

[00:05:37] So it involves, you know, quite a bit, but once you figure out the big picture, then it's easier to map things out and know what you're going to do at each stage.

[00:05:47] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah. I love that. And I really love that you start with the, like the planning and understanding the landscape. Cause I agree with you. It seems like so many people kind of just want to jump in and they're like, Oh my gosh.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] I know this one thing either needs to happen or this might happen if we do it this way. I've, I've got to get right in front of them right now and, and warn them so that we can avoid disaster. And oftentimes when you're rushing so quickly, if you haven't prepared for those conversations properly, if you don't understand who you're going to be speaking to, who's making those decisions, Um, the facts, the information that you need, or like you said, the emotional mindset, you could be going into a conversation that you're not prepared to have.

[00:06:35] Make it shut down before it even starts because you haven't prepared to approach it the right way.

[00:06:42] Patricia Ortega: Yes, oh my gosh, and you you take this off in my brain that part of the preparing. Sometimes we may jump straight into action But some of that preparing especially if you're newer or if you haven't been observing before, it's just sitting back And observing the landscape, sit back and observe [00:07:00] the decision makers.

[00:07:01] When you see them present something, when do they get excited? When do they get bored? When do they seem to tune in a little bit more? When do they seem to check out what's the communication style that they seem to gravitate towards and take well, you know, some people you and I talked about one of, um, somebody that I think it was somebody that worked for you and they were like, I want really clear.

[00:07:23] Tell me what I'm doing wrong and tell me in front of the group. Not everybody reacts well to that, right? So you've got to sit back and just like, just watch. That is half the battle. Because you, when you go into the, the, I always call it the bat cave. When you go into the bat cave to do your work, you are going to then have the information to build the plan out.

[00:07:43] Without that information. If you haven't been observing and paying attention to, maybe which team member, maybe they're a peer of yours has most influence on the leader or which other, pressures or outcomes, um, have most influence on the leader. If you don't have [00:08:00] that information, whatever you build as you're preparing is actually not going to be well suited.

[00:08:05] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah, and you touch on a really great point about having spent time observing the landscape, observing the people, and sometimes what I find is my clients either don't have direct access to be able to do the observation, or, they don't have the time. Like the amount of time it would take with the amount of access they have is quite limited, so if that's the case for you, if you can't do that direct observation, one thing you can do is either go to your boss, if that's not the person that you need to persuade. Or other people who might know the people that you need to persuade to get their input on, what's this person like?

[00:08:45] Because I find a lot of the times people are really open to having those conversations because they're being asked their opinion of someone, So it's an easy conversation to have and whether the information is correct or [00:09:00] incorrect is obviously up to you to kind of filter out and try to understand the information you're given.

[00:09:06] But that's another really valuable resources. You don't have to do all the observing yourself. You can reach out to the people who are close to those people that you need to persuade to find out what they're like and what you need to know going into the bat cave.

[00:09:21] Patricia Ortega: Yes. Yeah. You know what this reminds me of?

[00:09:24] This reminds me of the fact that when I was younger, in the beginning, I remember being like, oh, office politics. I hate them. You know?

[00:09:32] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Mm hmm.

[00:09:32] Patricia Ortega: But I hated them because what I realized was that I only saw the outside, like the visible part. I only saw, you know, um, I'm not gonna put any names 'cause I'll accidentally put a name that I know, but-

[00:09:44] Um, and then that person's gonna be like, what are you talking about me? I don't what you mean . Um, but like I would see someone go into a meeting, there was a number of leaders and they would have the leader's ear. And I'm like, well this is favoritism and this is

[00:09:56] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Mm-Hmm.

[00:09:57] Patricia Ortega: You know, and there is such a thing.

[00:09:59] And I'm [00:10:00] not going to deny it, there is such a thing as the boys club, there is such a thing as, you know, people who have these ties, you know, in different social circles, and that's fine, but what I realized over time is that a lot of the situations that I saw, and I was like, oh my gosh, it's favoritism, they like this person more.

[00:10:17] What I realized once I got to know some of these people is that they are the people that will build it privately and then they'll share it publicly. By the time they share it, the decision's actually already been bought into. And so I'm like, well, that makes sense. You've done the work.

[00:10:31] You've done the work.

[00:10:32] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Um, and you can use my name cause I was actually one of those people because I would. Go and do the work, right? Like you said, have those one on one conversations, build that reputation. And I probably had a bit of a reputation of what, why does everybody do what she says? And why don't they listen to us?

[00:10:52] Patricia Ortega: Gosh, Juliana. Juliana.

[00:10:54] Julianna Yau Yorgan: And, but it's because like you said, those people, yes, I totally agree with you. There is [00:11:00] absolutely a real problem with we'll say unqualified favoritism.

[00:11:05] Patricia Ortega: Yes.

[00:11:06] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Right. Where it's just favoritism because they like the same team or whatever. They used to go to school together, some random thing that has nothing to do with the work, but stepping into a situation, especially in, in some of the roles that I've had.

[00:11:21] And if you've got one of those roles where you need to persuade people, but you don't have any authority through title.

[00:11:28] Patricia Ortega: Yeah.

[00:11:29] Julianna Yau Yorgan: One of the really big things is to get to know who are the decision makers that you will need to deal with either in that isolated project or for all of your work in your role, and just get to know them and figure out like, what is it that concerns them.

[00:11:46] What do they want to achieve? What are the pressures they're getting from their boss or whatever else?

[00:11:53] Patricia Ortega: Yeah.

[00:11:53] Julianna Yau Yorgan: I even remember there was like this lady I worked with who was notorious for being like this really difficult [00:12:00] person. She disagreed with everything and argued everything. And people thought, probably thought I bribed her or something because she always went along with what I said.

[00:12:09] But because I took the time to get to know her and she's like, look. Yeah. I'm accountable to these people, and if they can't do their job, I have failed. And once I've, once I've got that out of her, I'm like, well that, I get that, and I can craft options for her that would not cause the, that team to fail.

[00:12:30] Yeah, but I guess from the outside people are like, why does she agree with Juliana all the time.

[00:12:35] Patricia Ortega: Why does Juliana always get what she wants?

[00:12:38] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Exactly.

[00:12:39] Patricia Ortega: But I'm so glad that you brought that up because, um, there's a danger that once we have a justification, we take that off ramp. We're like, Oh yeah. So, you know, these inner circles, they do exist. And so I shouldn't try to be inflated. You know, so even if we don't say that, we mentally give up on that process. And we're like, well, that's just the way it is.

[00:12:56] Um, And I'm encouraging you for listening right now. [00:13:00] Don't take the off ramp. There's things you can do to build your influence over time. And you may not go in and sometimes, you know, sometimes I start coaching with the client and they want, let's say for example, the, the pieces, I present something and.

[00:13:16] There's no buy in. So I'm going to work with you. And the thing I present next Tuesday is going to have buy in, but it doesn't always work like that

[00:13:23] It's not that

[00:13:24] Julianna Yau Yorgan: simple.

[00:13:25] Patricia Ortega: So some things that you can do to start building that, equity, that relational equity, right. And that, it's not just really persuasive equity. Um, here's a couple of things you can do.

[00:13:38] Reciprocity is really powerful. It's almost like when you ask somebody about themselves and you keep learning more about them, inevitably, unless you're talking to a sociopath, the person on the other end will inevitably say, Oh my gosh, I've been talking about myself so much.

[00:13:53] Like, tell me about you. That's reciprocity. So when you offer value, when you offer support, it makes people more likely [00:14:00] to reciprocate. And so you can start by you know, offering value to folks. And a second thing you can do is appeal to, there's something called cognitive dissonance, right? Where, what you say and what you do should be in alignment with each other.

[00:14:15] Well, similar to that, people prefer to act consistently. So they don't feel that they are. Different that, you know, it it just creates, um, I don't say I was gonna say agony. That's not the word. It creates discomfort when people acting consistently. And so what you can do is encourage small commitments at first to build up to larger decisions.

[00:14:35] This is similar to when you, um, maybe, uh, go to someone and, and ask them for a pen. If they say yes, and the next time you ask them for a stapler, chances are they've already decided that you're someone who is worthy of a pen. So they're going to give you a stapler. And so what you do is you just build this trust, right?

[00:14:56] Not manipulatively, but you build this trust [00:15:00] of small decisions. First, you don't ask them, you don't go in and for the jugular at the very beginning, You build this over time. Um, and then the other piece too, and then I'll stop there's, there's always more to go over, but the other piece too is, people trust a person who trusts themselves.

[00:15:16] So being able to establish yourself as a credible expert on the topic you're going to share about, you don't have to be the renowned world leader on a topic. You just have to know more than the people around you on this topic to be the in house subject matter expert, right? And so, there's such importance in knowing what you know and talking about it like you know it.

[00:15:44] And there's going to be mistakes and that's fine, but being able to establish yourself as a credible expert to leverage what you know, what you've done and your role, all of those things are really important to help people trust that you trust yourself and know [00:16:00] what you're doing.

[00:16:01] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah. And you shared so many great, um, I don't even want to call them tips because it seems like it's too simple if it's a tip, but insights we'll call them, but I wanted to go back to something you mentioned about. Not giving up when it doesn't go your way, it's not just not giving up, but really using that as information for the next time.

[00:16:27] So maybe it doesn't work this time, but use that as why didn't it work? What was it about my argument that they disagreed with, or my approach, or was I missing something? Did I not have the right one on one with the right person? Did I misunderstand who was making the decision? Because, like you said, it is being able to persuade people is not just an, like a skill and an art in general, but it's learning how to persuade a certain group of people or a certain person.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Because how a person is persuaded is so different from one person to another, right? Like what, what might work with you probably won't work with me.

[00:17:11] Or maybe we'll have some overlap, but we'll have some differences as well. So you can't just take something that worked one time and apply it cart launch to everything.

[00:17:23] Because it's not like in the movies where you make the really compelling argument in the boardroom and you ace the presentation and you get it. And you can just keep doing that over and over again, unless it's the exact same scenario with the exact same people, maybe, but. As you know, in, like, in the workplace, the players change with every scenario.

[00:17:43] There's always another person who's involved, right? So if it doesn't work, maybe you can try the same thing and it works with somebody else. But the key is to understand what did and didn't work with that key decision maker you had to [00:18:00] change, whose mind you had to change.

[00:18:02] Patricia Ortega: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, ultimately, I feel like a lot of what we're saying feels like and correct me if I'm wrong, because sometimes I can oversimplify things, but it feels like, what we're really talking about is being very observant.

[00:18:17] And then using that knowledge, that observational knowledge to your benefit. At the end of the day, if you remember nothing else, no tips and strategies and do this and do that, trust your instinct, observe, observe, observe, and then use that information to your advantage.

[00:18:35] Julianna Yau Yorgan: I totally agree. And I think maybe just a little bit more specifically because there's so much we can observe and there's probably some of you out there who are over observant and you're just taking all of it in. So just to be able to focus that observation a little bit, it's when, when they're making decisions, what information are they paying attention to? And what are they not? [00:19:00] When do you start to lose their interest? Because if you're losing their interest, they don't care about your argument.

[00:19:05] It doesn't matter how good your argument is. They've stopped listening, right? If they're on their phones or they're on their computers, you've lost them. But what is it that they've suddenly stopped? Reading their emails and they've looked up and they're like, wait, what? Because that's where you can start to pick up on what matters to them.

[00:19:28] But what's more important is why, and just be careful not to make an assumption about why, because if you get that wrong, you could go in totally the wrong direction with them. So it could be as simple as, oh, I, I noticed you're, you're quite interested in, this scenario or this information.

[00:19:47] What more can I share? And like, is there context that could help me explain this better or something just to get to know why is it that all of a sudden they care whether. I [00:20:00] don't know whether the glass is full or not. I'm looking at my water at my desk. Why are you so obsessed with whether that glass is full?

[00:20:09] Patricia Ortega: Oh, that's great.

[00:20:10] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Understand like, why does that matter? I didn't think it mattered. I didn't think it was a big thing. I thought you'd care about, I don't know, whether the water was hot or cold, not whether it was full. Right. So just trying to figure out, okay, where are they paying attention and why, because then you can really start to understand what matters most to them and how to make that argument better.

[00:20:30] Patricia Ortega: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Assumptions, I think are some of the sneakiest parts of this process because we are making so many assumptions as to why a decision didn't work. Um, but it can also work to your benefit. So say for example, you, you know, went to your leader.

[00:20:47] You better understood them. You heard them out and even reflected back. Oh, so from what I understand, this other perspective or this other framework, this other way of looking at problems is the way that resonates [00:21:00] with you. You take then you take that to know. And because you had that conversation. You're A, going to use that information to now think of things from their perspective, but also B, if there's any gaps in there, that is now for that leader to fill.

[00:21:15] So now that leader, if they make an assumption, they'll make an assumption knowing, Hey, he has this information about the framework that I use or the, whatever the worldview is that I have. So now you've given them space to fill the gap between what they think and what you're saying with the conversation they've had with you. As opposed to saying, Oh, he doesn't understand me and filling all the gaps with that type of assumption.

[00:21:40] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah, that's so true because you could waste so much time just literally barking up the wrong tree.

[00:21:47] Patricia Ortega: Yes. Absolutely you can.

[00:21:50] So it sounds like listen to the cues that make them pay attention, that call their attention. And then also listen to the cues that cause them to, [00:22:00] to check out.

[00:22:00] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah.

[00:22:01] Patricia Ortega: So we've gone over so many topics today.

[00:22:03] If you were to, kind of boil it down to some final thoughts for today, what would that be?

[00:22:09] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah, I think, if I think about everything we've talked, about, what I would say is if you're going to take anything away from our conversation, it's that persuasion is really about understanding who you need to persuade and what matters to them, if nothing else.

[00:22:28] Right? Like, yes, obviously you need to be prepared. You have to have your facts straight. You need to understand like what all the risks are, but, but at the end of the day, if you don't know who you're talking to or what matters to them, no amount of preparation is going to get you even close to the outcome that you want.

[00:22:48] Patricia Ortega: That's good. Okay. You're like, no amount, nothing.

[00:22:50] Julianna Yau Yorgan: No.

[00:22:51] Patricia Ortega: And it's, it's true. If you don't have that information.

[00:22:54] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Because you'd just be preparing for the wrong thing.

[00:22:56] Patricia Ortega: Exactly. It's the foundation. It's the foundation. [00:23:00] Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that because I'm like, that was insightful. I mean, I think for me, It really comes down to a willingness, it might be similar, a willingness to listen, a willingness to, you know, more so than coming to the table.

[00:23:17] And I'm guilty of this. I'm guilty of being like, I want to be listened to, right? And then I have to remind myself, the answer to that is to begin by listening to others, you know? So. And I think this is just a tendency that we all have. So just starting at the very basics and saying, okay, let's take a quick step back, and listen and understand.

[00:23:35] And from that, an empathy comes and that empathy, like everything else flows from that empathy. And it feels a lot more organic to then, sort of like you buy into the values of the other person, the way that they think, their perspective, the pressures that are on them. And by buying into those, you then craft something that works for you.

[00:23:55] And it's what it's, it is your plan, but it's also from their other perspective. So [00:24:00] that for me, it's listening is the big one.

[00:24:02] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah. I think that's a really great one because I know a lot of people go in prepared to talk everybody's ear off to get their decision, but definitely listen for his talk.

[00:24:14] Patricia Ortega: Yeah. It's so valuable. It's, it's a very valuable and under underrated skill. I think listening is.

[00:24:20] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Yeah.

[00:24:21] Patricia Ortega: Well, gosh, today has been a great episode and, um, we're going to wrap it up here because again, we can go on forever. But we will be back soon with another conversation. And in the meantime, be sure to connect with us on LinkedIn and let us know what you thought about today's topic.

[00:24:36] And of course, we'll also drop our links to resources in the show notes. All right. Thanks everyone for joining us.

[00:24:42] Julianna Yau Yorgan: Thanks everyone. Bye now.

[00:24:44] Patricia Ortega: Bye.

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