61. How to Inject Joy into Your Career and Find Fulfillment with Lisa Even

PATRICIA: Lisa, I am so excited to see you here. How are you today?

LISA: I am good. I am located in Des Moines, Iowa. So we have 20 inches of snow and it's negative temperatures today. So I mean, what could be better than that? Right? Oh, my goodness. Okay, warm and sunshine. But other than that, life is good.

PATRICIA: That's so funny. I was just complaining about our 10 degrees here, but you're in the negatives. So I will put away my complaints. So tell me a little bit about yourself. Actually, I know a little bit about you. But tell everyone listening, sort of what you do and why you're so fun.

LISA: Oh, I'm so fun. Thank you. That's like a the best compliment I think I could get. So a little bit about me, since this is more on the career side of things, I'll give you maybe a little bit of my professional background, and then I'll give you the personal. I started in health care. So I did project management, and then I had a senior leader say, I think you would be a great people leader. And I was like, oh, OK. So I jumped over and tried that, and I did that for a number of years. I had large teams and I loved it. Like those cranky people who are like, I'm not doing it. You know, I'm like, okay, before I get mad at you, like, why aren't we doing it? Like, I just want to know, because usually I always say like, I just want to try on people's glasses and be like, can I see what you see? Cause I think it would make a whole lot more sense. So I did that. Um, and right around that time, personally, my husband and I were feeling a little bit like overworked, overscheduled. We had little kids. And one night I said to him, we chase a lot of things like jobs and promotions. Like, you know, we wanted to buy a house. We have little kids, like all of these things were chasing them and overscheduling ourselves. And my husband's like, you know, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, could we chase something else? Like, what if we chased joy, like fun? What if we actually looked at our calendar and said, we're the bosses. And we're not going to wait for joy to find us, but we're going to find it ourselves. And so that was seven or eight years ago and the world kind of collided. We started to do. Like, uh, joy activities at home. And then I took them to work and we were doing joy activities with my team and the rest is history. And just recently I published a book on Amazon called joy is my job. And it's just about getting out there and creating joy. finding things that are fun. So that's like a little bit of personal, a little bit of professional. So I call myself a joy connoisseur. Like let's do it.

PATRICIA: Okay. I am so grateful that you shared the book because that maybe will, I think we're going to dig a little bit into the book, but I also know that if folks go onto your website, they see multiple, um, icons, multiple brands. So tell us about your brands. Cause I think you cover such a gamut of events.

LISA: Yeah, well, it's so funny, because I read a quote recently that said, like, it was an EB White quote, and you should go look it up for those of you who are listening, because I'll probably not say it quite correctly. But his, the thought was, you know, he balances or battles the desire to savor, like enjoy, or save the world. And every day, it makes it hard to plan. And I was literally like, this is my whole life story. Because if you go out to my website, you know, my business really started with this idea of, I want people to get out there and have good ripple effect, right? Like I want them to get out there and do things because everything you say and do, it's a ripple, right? It's happy or crappy, your choice. And I feel like that's what I've been saying to my teams for years. And then the joy piece came along and it was like, well, shouldn't we be able to both savor and save? the world in your corner of the world. And so those are two of the things. And then the third one, which is an event that I host here in Iowa twice a year. And those are called Rising Tides Connection Conferences. And the idea is, is that if we all come together, we create a better result. So those are one day conferences where you get to connect and ideate and think, you know, be in think tank. those are the three things I, whenever people ask, they're like, what do you do? I'm like, you know, I speak at conferences on ripple effect, joy and rising tides. And I host workshops and yeah, it all seems to kind of like fit together in this just really mashed up way.

PATRICIA: I love it. So when people ask you like, Hey, what do you do? And you're like, Oh, I speak and I do conferences. Right. When I think of it, you know, there's a book by Jordan Rainer. I've been reading a lot of, um, lately. And he talks about your one thing, like master of one, it's called. And he talks about your one thing. And he's like, it could look like different activities, right? So across your life, it could look different. And that's what it reminds me of, right? You have this message of life and work doesn't have to suck. It could be amazing. It could be fun. It could be joy-filled. It doesn't have to be hoity-toity, super hyper-professional. Really, that's what you do across Joy Is My Job, across Have Good Ripple Effect, across Rising Tides. You're bringing people together in different formats. That's what I feel like. I feel like you have the same message and it's different formats.

LISA: Oh, that's a great, like a great way to say that I might have to steal it almost like radio versus television versus like something else. Yeah, yeah, it is really true. And I, I just think that life is really short. And so a little part of me is like all the things that I want to tell people, like life is short, get out there and have some fun. Life is short. Life make a difference even if it's just the person at the coffee shop that you like surprise or you know you're having a great conversation with like there there are these moments hiding in plain sight that you can take advantage of.

PATRICIA: Okay, let's go from there, right? So part of the conversation, we want to start talking about, you know, how do we help folks who are professionals, there may be an management or director or higher type of positions, right? They're leading other people. And they just have figured out, you know, I don't even know how I got here. I've been at this company for 15 years, 10, 15, 20 plus years, I have not been in the job search market for a very long time. I'm stressed, I'm burnt out, I'm anxious. But at the same time, I feel like maybe this isn't even the way I want to go. So if I take a career change, or a career move, and I move up, I'm still going in the wrong direction. Right. And so this, like, sense of joy and happiness sort of leaves our body at this, you know, thought of this, like, with us, your principles, like, how can we switch our perspective switch our mindset in those times?

LISA: Yeah, I think the first couple of things that I'll say are, When I whenever I do, I call it like a joy check in where I'm like, Hi, Lisa, it's almost like Lisa talking to Lisa, right? Like, Hi, Lisa, are we having enough, like joy in our lives? And then if the other Lisa basically says, like, no, we hate it, all the things that you just, you know, said, then for me, that's a signal to be like, okay, something has to either be added, be changed, or be deleted. Right, like it's almost like we need to get rid of it or we need to change it. And so first order of business oftentimes is to identify like what gets in the way. Oftentimes someone will be like, well, I want more joy, but I have a crappy job. I want more joy, but I don't have any money. I want more joy, but you know, the dishes in the sink just drive me bonkers. Like it's all the things that we look around and see. And I say, what if you could have them both? Like, what if you could be busy and stressed and have a crappy job, but still be slightly joyful. And so one of the main principles I teach and talk about is called, and it's so official, it's called crappy to happy. And there's this idea that you have unglamorous things in your life that you have to do. And yeah, it's what if you added a little bit of joy before, during, or after? And for me and for someone who's maybe kind of got a foot into arenas, right, looking for a job, having a job, it's like, what if you actually created a little bit of joy in your current position? And then when you're in job interviews, you can talk about, you know, one of the ways that I engage my team, or one of the things that we recently started is blank. And it almost becomes jet fuel for two arenas. And they're everywhere, whether, you know, in our world in healthcare, we had a lot of like, You know, whether it was like phone calls and administrative things to like icky gross, like substances and like, you know, just the healthcare is like icky. Right. And so how do you take a space in a place that's historically. Everyone coming here is having the worst day of their life. We're caring for them. There's a ton of administrative work. There's a ton of just like. Process and people and protocol and all the things like why can't we have a little bit of both. And so that's the first thing is really look at that crappy to happy and think about, well, where do I start infusing some fun things inside of that.

PATRICIA: Okay, so before you go on to your second piece, I'm like, let's park it here for just one second here. What I find interesting is that when we as humans, right, start to prepare for interviews, we immediately think we're being evaluated, there's a right answer, and there's a wrong answer. And I got a fish out of my pocket, the right answer, right? But these things that you're talking about, this emotional resiliency, really, this mental fitness to be able to find the good, even in a negative or a less than ideal situation, is one of those moments that employers and hiring managers are really waiting to hear. Nobody asks you the question, tell us about a time when your job sucked, but you made it well anyways. Nobody asks you that. But if a candidate goes in there and says, oh, what's a weakness that you have? Well, you know, recently I realized that I was kind of in a slump in my career and I was negative Nancy. Like I was just not being a positive influence on my team. And in that moment, here's what I did. Boom, boom, boom. And you know, I found joy in a situation where I thought, you know, just changing my perspective. And so to show that, even though it's not explicitly asked of you in an interview, shows us emotional intelligence that as a leader, whether you're a manager, director, or hire, you are now instantly more likable and people are like, Oh, I think this person would be someone others would like to work under. Right. So I just had to kind of pull that piece out because it's so, so valuable in those interviews to, to bring that up. So continue.

LISA: Oh, I love it. And I also think that, um, it also shows you that your ability to get, you know, sometimes, especially in that middle manager rank, like if you're a senior leader and you've got managers who are managing the people, and you feel really far away from the people actually doing the work, one of the biggest and best things that you can do is really help your leaders underneath of you, coach them through, how are you engaging with your team? And so you can very easily, like one of the things that we talked about with my supervisors is, well, we called it engagement, right? We call it joy, but we call it engagement. And I would say, what does it look like for an engagement activity for this week? We were always just like putting a little like spin somewhere because our brains like pattern, but they also like surprise. And so we were creating on the one hand, a very like, you know, protocol driven process driven place. But I was like, but we need a little sparkle here and there. And I'll never forget one of my supervisors goes, Lisa, it's been a really tough week. We had a couple of patients that were nearing like the end of their lives, essentially. And we were helping them through that and the team feels it right. Like everybody, when they say like, it's not brain surgery or rocket science. And I'm like, hi, it was actually, we were, we were brain surgery. Um, and I'll never forget one of my supervisors because Lisa, I had some tissue paper in my glove box of my car. And I was like, oh, and she goes, and I just thought we needed a little bit of like a campfire Kumbaya. And I was like, oh, okay. And she's like, so this morning at huddle, I crumpled up this orange tissue paper, put it on the, uh, table and said to the team, like team, we've had a really tough week. I want to talk about how you have really overcome that and, you know, dealt with all the challenges. And before you leave huddle today, she had these little white pieces of paper. You were just a jot down one thing that you wanted to get rid of that you wanted to like, you know, burn up and have it go away. Maybe it was just frustration or sadness or. Just the, the week itself and everyone threw their pieces of paper into the camp, the fake campfire on our corporate conference room table. And it was really interesting because months later, those, those team members were saying things like that campfire was really powerful. And it's like, gosh, if you can create an opportunity for your leaders underneath of you to create a little bit of joy and engagement and joy, doesn't necessarily always have to be like. the amazing thing. It can just be a moment of like, hi, thank you. That in an interview is powerful as well. So I love like where you were going with that. Cause I think being a little bit intentional goes a long way.

PATRICIA: Yeah. And being present because you can't just as a manager, right? You can't just be like, okay, I'm listening to this podcast and tomorrow I'm going to do that, but I haven't been present or paying attention. Right. And so how do you like easing into that and being more aware and more present literally, I mean, we're humans, we are masters at detecting the undetectable in absolutely right, the genuineness, the caring, like the I have other things to do, or the I care more about what you have to do for me, as opposed to what you're telling me right now, we can detect that so quickly. And so if you can start even just today, like going into work, Taking a breath, not with anybody else. You're not yet involving people and throw it. Don't buy your orange tissue paper today. Head into the office and start getting into that space of like, let's breathe. Let's pick one person and just like really get to know them or really listen to them. And it doesn't have to take a whole lot of time. Just spend five minutes, like just really listening to them. And over time, this will come naturally to you and you'll have your own tissue paper activity and people will be bought in because it's genuine.

LISA: There is a great YouTube video, which I had watched it like years ago. So I wonder if I could find the link, but of Jerry Seinfeld. And Jerry is a comedian, if you don't know who he is. And after his shows, he will say, well, what do you say to 300 strangers? Like people want to come up and talk to you. And you're like, hi, how are you? And one of my favorite things that he says is he goes, I ask them something very specific. Like if you've got a team member that you want to engage with or like find out a little bit more about them, oftentimes, you know, if you ask the question, how are you? We go, good, good. And then you have nowhere to pivot in that conversation. And his thought is if I ask someone something very specific, you know, and if I do this to you, Patricia, where did you grow up? What would you say? Yeah, I'm asking you a very specific question. Where did you grow up?

PATRICIA: Southern California.

LISA: Great. How long did you live there?

PATRICIA: Now you're making me think. I see what you're doing here, right? Because you give me good information back. And not only that, as we're going through this process, we sometimes forget, even, I don't know about you, but I'll take this one straight for myself, I sometimes forget, even though I do this work all the time, I forget how just asking that question immediately makes me wake up and not give that fine answer and just move along like a robot. It wakes me up. The moment you ask me something more specific, I had to. I had no choice. No matter how grumpy I was, we talked about some grumpy employees. I've been one myself. I've had my days. I've had my years even. But even in those moments, it kind of like snaps me out of it. And I'm like, Oh, you're invested in me. I have to invest back. It's almost like the social contract that's created.

LISA: So I would say the questions that you ask have to have a semi exact answer. So don't be like, how are you? Cause they're going to be like, good. It's more like, where were you born? You know, have you ever been skiing? We tried skiing this last weekend for the first time. And it's like, Patricia, have you ever been skiing? Snowboarding. Snowboard, see, and I'm like, you know what? I'll have to try that because this time I wasn't, you know, it allows you to pivot within that conversation. And then you can follow up with the more preference type questions of, do you like snowboarding? Do you enjoy it?

PATRICIA: You're asking me, oh, I love snowboarding. I am absolutely, I love snowboarding. And I'm so sad that we moved because now there's not a lot of snow out here.

LISA: That's okay. Yeah, see, it's a really powerful question, but those specific questions allow you to get some good insight. And then the preference questions, if you follow those up a little bit later in the conversation, they feel safer. And that's where you can start to tinker with like, what do you do for joy? Like, would you, if you had a day off, Patricia, and I'm actually asking you, if you had a day off, what would you do? Like what would a joyful day? Yeah. And then all of a sudden, you know, it's really fun. My kids got little snowboarding skateboards. They're like those finger skateboards.

PATRICIA: Yeah.

LISA: And they're stocking stuffers this year, which made me, you made me think of this. Um, and so it's like, wouldn't that be cute to put on their desk at the little $2 finger, you know, like snow board or skateboard to be like, Hey, wish you were, you know, wishing it was snowboarding weather. It's really those little tiny touches and really just starting to build those moments. Like you said, that can then create some bigger moments like the campfire. We were also doing, um, We had, we made sandwiches for a homeless shelter because somebody had that idea. It goes on and on, but I think you're right. You have to ease into it. I like that point a lot.

PATRICIA: Yeah. And I think, you know, I feel like as humans, we do these things, but sometimes we don't call attention to them. And I hear a lot of, oh, I just dot dot dot. Oh, I just help people do this. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Let's take that just and what you just spent a second just zooming past. Let's stop right there and find what's in that just and in that just we find so much. impact, so much passion, so much caring, so much compassion. Like we find the human in that jest. And I feel like some of the most powerful career micro stories to share in the interviews are in that jest. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are on the things that maybe the ways that we are bringing some sort of joy, but we don't give ourselves credit for it.

LISA: I would agree. And I think one of the fun things that, so it was really kind of cute. We had one person who you know, a lot of times I'll do like a values exercise with the team where I'll just put, I have a, find it on the internet, right? Just a list of like things that are important. And we did a values exercise with the team. And I was like, Hey, which ones are most important to you? And I had two individuals, one gentleman who is always making jokes, like almost always making jokes to the point where you're like, hi, stop making jokes. And then I had another human who was really a little bit more like stoic and driven. right? Like he, his top, when they filled out their sheets, you know, you're walking around and I'm like looking and I'm like, cause I can just see their top values, like coming to the top humor and then achievement. And they, it was perfect because on this particular day they were sitting next to each other. And I was like, I said to the one that had humor as his top, I'm like, tell us why humor was like one of your top. And he goes, you know, I had a crappy childhood. And one of the ways that I got through it was to make jokes. And he goes, it's what I do in the world. And it was so interesting because the other person next to him was like almost looking at him like, Oh, so this wasn't you trying to be like ridiculous all day long. And I loved it because every morning we would do our morning huddle. And I finally was like, Hey, will you tell us a joke every morning, start us off with a joke. And he's like, do they have to be work appropriate? And I looked at him and I laughed and I said, yes, sir, they do. He goes, Lisa, I'm not the right man for the job. And I laughed at him. I'm like, but you are. And so he started telling a joke every morning at morning huddle. And then when his wife ended up having a baby, he went out on leave with her for a couple of weeks. And the guy that was sitting next to him came to huddle and he goes, I brought a joke. And it was really fascinating that these micro moments right? These micro mini moments had created an opportunity to harness something versus squash it. And I think that if you're a leader thinking about how am I harnessing these moments, sometimes it's in their top values, like look there and even, or like what they talk a lot about, because if they want to be seen as funny, if they want us to be seen as smart, if they want to be seen as driven, how do you position them to get into that driver's seat. And then how are you encouraging joy within that? And so that's not, I mean, that's a huge concept that we won't get through fully today, but just look around for those little moments of what people are talking about and what's important as most of it lies right there.

PATRICIA: Absolutely love that. It's like cracking open a whole new world, just one tiny little piece at a time. Because these are, in the grand scheme of things, these are some small things, some small steps, some beginner steps. But there's really a whole world behind connection, emotional intelligence, being able to build a team. And bringing joy to your job is such a huge concept, hence why you have so many speaking engagements and so much content in the books and everything. Okay. So let's just kind of switch gears just a little bit. The other issue that comes up, so right now we've been talking about in the workplace, how do you find those moments of joy? How do you create those moments of joy? And also how do you communicate those moments of joy so that other potential employers see you and they're like, oh, this person's amazing. I want to work with this person. But the other thing I've noticed that I'm hoping you can inject some joy into is there's, I feel like there's a sense of, no, let me back up. I feel like in the world of social media, and I'm going to kind of remove you know, the, what is it, the third wall or the fourth wall or whatever, right? As a business owner, I read a lot about marketing and how to market your business. And I see a lot of other coaches and in the space of career coaching, what I see a lot is this pitting of employers against candidates, right? Of like, they're doing this and they're doing that. And, you know, so each side has, they're like, can this person, can the hires, please, the hiring manager, please stop doing this. Can the recruiter please stop doing this? You know? And so it kind of hurts me inside a little bit, you know, because I'm like, Yeah, the system's broken. The system is broken. It's not any one person who created this. It's just, it's this mechanism that kind of takes on a life of its own and with technology and, and all of that. But I feel like what's happening is, um, for 10, 15, 20, I don't know, for the life of, you know, um, the hiring process, it's a process where candidates are just always feeling inadequate, like put down, rejected by the process, right? And then there's this feeling of like us versus them. When you go into the interview, like you're being evaluated in the negotiations, right? How do we inject some joy to get on the same side of the table and say, Hey, I'm trying to look for the best candidate for you too. And let's figure out if that's me. And then let's come to the negotiation table and let's, you know, find a win-win situation. Like how do we inject joy in a process that typically is pits people against each other?

LISA: Yeah. And I often talk in like analogies. So the analogy that I'll give is, uh, every day we put on clothes, right? Today I'm wearing white and blue stripes. You're wearing, it looks like black or Navy. And so we put on our clothes and then we go, you know, we go out into the world and I think about the table that you sit at when you're interviewing and you're putting on the interviewee, you know, jacket and they're putting on the interviewer jacket. And I often will say to myself, well, I just want them and I want to try on their jacket and I want to give them mine to try on and so for me it's a lot like. going into a situation where i'm like I just want to try on try it on like trying their glasses trying their jacket and so oftentimes they'll ask me a question. i'll answer it and then i'll say you know i'll ask like what's been the most interesting answer that you've gotten to that question. Because I want to be able to create dialogue and not just like ask the question, answer it, ask the question, answer it. And you want to be careful, right? You don't want to do that too many times, but you know, if they say, tell me about a time where you overcame a challenge. Right. And I give my answer and I tell them my example and I'll say, gosh, I'm sure as an interviewer, you are a recruiter. You, you get to hear it all. What's been like, you know, before we go to the next question, I'm curious, what's been the most interesting story that you ever heard? that a candidate has said. Or maybe at the end you ask that, but you wanna move past this like, I'm just staying in my jacket to almost like, oh my gosh, if I try on your jacket for a minute, what do you see? What do you hear? What have you heard from others in the industry? If you start to be interested versus trying to be interesting, it really pivots the conversation. And you want to honor it, right? You want to answer the questions, but that's not to say that you can't have a little bit of fun and be still like professional and appropriate, but also like, gosh, I'm sure that this, like how many candidates do you interview in a week? Or getting a little bit into their side of what it looks like and feels like to be them, especially if you're in round one of interviews, they're going to remember you. And they're going to go to that hiring leader and say, you know, I met with the most interesting person today. And they were just asking great questions. And I don't know. I just have a sense that I think you should interview them. And then the hiring manager comes along and says, you know, I know you met with recruiter. They were saying, you know, blah, blah, blah. I would love to know more. So it's almost creating an invitation. you know, feel it out. Not every situation can do, you can do that in, but here and there, they truly want to see that you're a good human and that you're interested, just like you would be interested in the team that you're leading or the team that you're joining.

PATRICIA: I love this. So quick takeaways, you want to aim for being interested versus being interesting. I like that way that you put it. I'm really going over empathy, like understand what their experience is. And when you show empathy, like you said, it invites people to show empathy as well, to try to understand what your side of the story and your side of the conversation is. And one other thing I heard in this conversation is disrupt their the thinking process, right? Not in a bad way, but disrupting is actually a great thing to do. It's kind of like productive conflict. Disrupting means that we're used to the rote, ask, answer, ask, answer, ask, answer, take a break, take a breather, go to the restroom, come back, ask, answer, ask, answer, right? So in the middle of that, the face gets lost, the person gets lost. So disrupt that process so that they have to think and answer something they weren't expecting to answer, for one. And two, it helps you inject, like you said, some emotion. And for better or for worse, I think it's for better. But as humans, we make decisions first emotionally, and then we look for evidence to support it. And so it doesn't matter if you're in engineering, data science, or in something more emotionally impactful, like social science or something like that, counseling maybe. we are humans. And so at the core, we want to feel alive and emotion is alive. And so that's the piece that helps to remember someone in a positive light. Absolutely. I love it. I could keep you here for hours and hours. We could just keep going on. I love your perspective on things like the fact that things don't have to be drudgery. They can be joyful and they can be fun and still be high performance and still meet and exceed goals and make customers happy and bring in, you know, increase the bottom line. So, all right, we are nearing the end of today's conversation. If you had one minute where the entire world would hear your message, what would you share?

LISA: Ooh, I think I would. You know, I jokingly, like you made me think about, like, I always tell my husband not to go a little bit dark on you. Um, if I die, make sure there's a food truck and a band at my funeral. And I hope that someone gets up there and says, don't be sad. Joy is your job. Get out there and do it. And then they would like drop the microphone and everyone would like laugh and leave. But in a little bit more serious note, I would say that I would just tell people you happen to the world, not the other way around. You happen to the world, not the other way around. And what I mean by that is there will be all sorts of natural disasters, crazy things happening to you, but you always have the power to happen to it. Like the way that you respond and the way that you act, that is your power. And so I would just encourage folks, no matter where you're starting, I didn't grow up, with a lot of privilege and many things. And it's like, doesn't matter the life circumstance that either you were born in or accidentally gifted, right? Or something happens to you, but you have opportunity to have good ripple effect. Get out there and happen to it.

PATRICIA: I love that. Happen to the world. Don't let the world happen to you. Lisa, thank you so much for spending time with us. Again, tell us where we can find you and remind us where we can get your book.

LISA: Thank you so much. It's always like so fun. So Amazon is where you can find the book joy is my job and my name is Lisa even like even Stephen. Uh, if you're trying to spell my last name, most people can't because they're, they're like, does it have an a I'm like, there's no way it's like, it's gotta be, it's gotta be different than the word.

PATRICIA: I know to be exactly.

LISA: Uh, and you can find me Lisa, even.com I'm on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. So follow along for a little bit of joy and ripple effect. And I tell stories and hopefully you laugh too. Cause you're like, man, I'm right there with you.

PATRICIA: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm so happy that you were able to come today.

LISA: Yes. Thank you. Have a great day.

PATRICIA: Awesome. Well, everyone, thank you so much for listening. I'm excited that you're here with us. Know that we love you. We're praying for you and we'll see you on the next one.

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