73. Mastering Leadership and Management with Roberta Matuson

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Patricia Ortega: Hey, everyone. Welcome back today. We are talking to Roberta Matuson and she's going to share with us a lot of great information on leadership, on management, and just how to maximize your time when you're in an organization to make the biggest impact. Now, one of the things that immediately caught my attention was managing up.

So I know we're going to touch on that subject, but before we get into it, Roberta, welcome. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here today. I'm excited to have you. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what brings you here today?

Roberta Matuson: You brought me here today because of your enthusiasm for the topic of leadership and helping people grow in their careers like you.

I do a lot of work in that space. I'm an executive coach. I'm an advisor. And I have been where most of your listeners. Are right now or are going. [00:01:00] So I'm excited for us to chat about, how do you get into the executive suite? Do you want to be in the executive suite? And all things management.

Patricia Ortega: You bring up a great question that I think we definitely want to get into. But first I have to touch on this book that you and I just talked about, The Suddenly In Charge. It's such a neat idea, so why don't you introduce us to the book and we'll see where the conversation goes.

Roberta Matuson: Great. Suddenly in charge, managing up, managing down, succeeding all around is my seventh book. And this is actually the third edition of this book. And if you know anything about books most books don't make it past 500, books being sold. So to get to a third edition is a pretty exciting thing and I'm very excited.

The reason I wanted to write this new edition was that the workplace has changed dramatically since COVID. And I wanted to make sure that leaders and people who are employed [00:02:00] by organizations had a resource they could use that was up to date. On how to manage, a hybrid situation or how to manage when you're working remotely.

Hence the third edition, which just came out.

Patricia Ortega: Oh, that's wonderful. Congratulations on that. Thank you. I hear that is your seventh book. So near the end of the episode, I'm going to want to ask you about the other six, but for now. In terms of managing up, I think managing down feels a little more straightforward, even though it's not right.

But managing up seems to feel like a mystery to most folks. So why don't you share with us the lay of the land, how you create a framework for people around this.

Roberta Matuson: Sure. My definition of managing up is managing your boss and the people above you in the organization so that you can get the resources you need for yourself and for your people.

And it really, in a nutshell, comes down to building these relationships. [00:03:00] And they have, and you have to be really intentional. It doesn't just happen when you're sitting at your desk. One of the mistakes I made early on in my career was I was promoted into management into the executive suite actually at the age of 24 and I thought I knew everything.

So I just kept my head down like most people and just. focused on the tactical parts. And what I failed to do was manage up. I didn't know I had to build these relationships and things didn't really end that well.

Patricia Ortega: Ah, and this is such a great point to bring at the very outstart is, even though Your leaders are above you.

It doesn't mean, and it shouldn't mean, especially if you're in the executive suite, it shouldn't mean that you don't have your own point of view, your own, way of doing things, even way of challenging sometimes. So what point did you realize, oh, this isn't the way it's supposed to [00:04:00] work? When I got fired.

Okay. So tell us a little bit, how can someone avoid a situation like that? What are some of the signs that they're like, Oh, this isn't going the way that it's supposed to go?

Roberta Matuson: When your boss tells you that you're not meeting her expectations, although she's never told you what they were, that's number one.

That's when you should run because the problem is her, not you, but it's also about so many of us. And especially today, we are overwhelmed with tasks, right? Your listeners are probably doing at least one in a quarter to one and a half jobs right now. And the last thing that they want to do is have another quarter of a job, which is managing your boss.

What really happens over time is that if you do a great job of managing your boss, your job gets a lot easier. My recommendation is when you get into a job is that's like the number one thing, [00:05:00] figuring out what kind of boss do I have? It's the hands on boss. Is this somebody who's going to want to know all the details or they just want to know my recommendation?

Is this somebody that trust people immediately or do I have to earn it? And how do I do that? Really come outside yourself. and recognize that this is your responsibility.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah, absolutely. And having that, not only knowing what type of boss they are, but having that empathy, to be able to say what motivates you, what drives you, what do you.

in your view, because perspective is everything. There's going to be a boss who says, if you get me data, I believe you are valuable. There's going to be a different boss who might say, I am all about strategy. That I'm more intuitive, right? So figuring out who your boss is and having empathy for what drives them, what motivates them is going to help you to really understand them.

Even beyond that, bring back attention to a really important piece that [00:06:00] you said. You mentioned tactical versus strategic. This is what I personally find most often is there's, we're so, focused because, we've been an individual contributor for so long, right? And so we're so focused in the task at hand and being the best person to do the technical and tactical side of things that we lose out on the strategic, which if we look at, the priority matrix, I think the Eisenhower matrix, right?

There's urgent and important. And that's tactical. But then there's not urgent and important. This is where I think strategy sometimes lives, right? It doesn't have a set deadline, but oftentimes we miss it. So what are your thoughts on that?

Roberta Matuson: My thoughts are that, it's up to the individual to actually educate themselves.

I know in my career my undergraduate degree was in human resources and I knew in order to be able to talk the language of business that I needed to get an MBA. That was for me. And that was in the time that happened at a time when you couldn't [00:07:00] go online and really get a mini MBA, right?

Or there were no podcasts. So today, I might suggest something different to listeners and say, look, I get that. Maybe you don't want to spend, 200, 000 on another three. Gotcha. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't invest in yourself and, get a subscription to the wall street journal, New York times, keep up with current events.

LinkedIn learning is great. I have seven courses on the platform, go take a LinkedIn learning class. And your company may actually offer LinkedIn learning. to you. So there's a lot of things that you need to do to help yourself. You cannot wait for your employer to, come out with pixie dust and say, we're going to send you to Harvard.

For two years, like not going to happen.

Patricia Ortega: Oh, absolutely. Could you imagine? Oh, that's just a different, it's just a whole different world altogether, if that were possible. Okay. So we're in this scenario let's say I'm in [00:08:00] management and I move up to my first, Director, maybe first senior director position.

And I'm really excited about it, right? I'm going to do the best job possible. I go in there. I take that first piece of advice that you said, which is to get to know what kind of a leader I have. What are the next two or three things you think that they should implement?

Roberta Matuson: I think you have to understand that the higher up you go, the more political things begin to happen in the organization.

The politics just gets a more intense. And so you can't say, you know what, I'm just not going to play. I'm not going to participate. You can, but then you cannot work for a nonprofit. You cannot work for a for profit or family business. Okay. The only way when you can't even avoid it when you work for yourself, because you got to play politics with clients, politics is not a dirty word.

Really what it is it's the informal way that things get done. So you have to figure out, who in the room gets the ear of the [00:09:00] CEO who in the room gets resources, even though you're told there's a spending freeze. Somebody in that room is getting money because you happen to notice that all their employees have brand new laptops.

You have to try to watch what they're doing and see, Hey maybe I need to be doing a little more of this. So be observant.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah. And in the first, I always think of the first, month, two months, three months as this time period to get to know, not just your boss, but like you said, the temperament of everyone else in the room, find out, read through decision making documents, right?

How does money flow? How do decisions and communication flow? All of these pieces are like you said, tiny bits of intentional knowledge you're gathering along the way that. You may not have a plan for exactly how they're going to come into play, but once a situation calls itself, you can be like, Oh, I know so and and let me just take this second. You and I are probably going to agree on this. I hope. I was always taught the person you [00:10:00] are the sweetest to, is, they used to, they were old school, used to call them gatekeepers, but this is like your, human resource professional, your administrative assistant, your executive assistant.

These are all number one, the people that make things happen. And also the people that are going to share some really important information for you along the way. They might even share, some way of how the boss perceives XYZ issue information that you might not get from them.

And so I always think of, like you said, politics, not as a dirty word, but more as it really just means that you're in the know about how things happen and you have relationships that help you to do that.

Roberta Matuson: I love that. And, you're so right. In the book, Suddenly In Charge, I talk about how, back in the day we had these people, they were called secretaries.

I don't think they have a lot of them anymore or administrative assistants, but man, they could keep that door closed or they could get you in to see the big cheese. And if you're nice to them, ooh, those are the people that you really want to, be [00:11:00] respectful and not be dismissive of because they hold a lot of power.

Patricia Ortega: They do. They really do. And. There's one component of many of those relational pieces and I would love it, with your permission, to move on to another component of that relationship, we touched on the people, the decision making documents, the way that communication and resources flow.

But if we are that high in leadership, we also have a team that we're leading. And you and I talked about a concept of magnetic leadership that I think is really neat. Can you share a little bit about that?

Roberta Matuson: Sure. I wrote a book called the magnetic leader. I want to share about first why I wrote that book.

Prior to the magnetic leader, I wrote a book called evergreen talent or actually talent magnetism evergreen talents, another book, but talent magnetism. And when I write my books, I don't read them until I'm done. And so I read the whole book when I was done, I was like, Oh wow, [00:12:00] this ability to attract and keep people.

It really comes down to the leader. And when you have a magnetic leader and a magnetic leader is somebody who just attracts talent, like people stick to them as opposed to the Teflon leader who can't keep anybody around people are bouncing off of them. And so those leaders are the people who. Are able to get a lot of things done in a very productive and efficient way.

And people enjoy working for them. So from a leadership perspective, working on becoming what we call a magnetic leader is really key.

Patricia Ortega: Wow. I can imagine in my head based off my experience, it's always around these emotional intelligence skills, being able to garner discretionary effort, being able to, help people develop this shared vision because of those skills that you have.

But I'm curious to know your perspective as someone who has [00:13:00] written multiple books on the ways to really succeed in these organizations. What makes up this concept of magnetism?

Roberta Matuson: I, when I wrote the book I spotlighted maybe seven to 10 leaders who I thought were very magnetic and, they had a lot in common.

And some of those traits are They're very authentic. They take, they tell people like it is they're not hiding anything. They're very transparent also. They have strong communication skills. You know that they're more concerned about you than themselves. The list goes on and on, but they just certain traits and the beauty of these traits are, these are traits that you don't have to be born with.

I don't, I think people can learn to be more empathetic in my coaching practice. I teach them how to become more empathetic. If that's the area that they're working on, there's lots of skill building. So the beauty of the topic that you and I are talking about [00:14:00] is that you don't have to be born to be a leader.

Like you're not born into leadership, right? Yeah. King, but not to be a leader.

Patricia Ortega: So if there's someone that's interested in developing these leadership skills and they're like, I don't really know what it is.

I'm just, I can, I know I'm not magnetic, right? But I don't know what it is I need to work on. How do you then walk them from the process of not knowing why they are not magnetic or what they need to work on through figuring that out, working on it, and getting to that place where their team is just excited to be a part.

Roberta Matuson: It's a great question. When I work with my clients, I start off with a 360. And what's unique about my 360s is I don't just send out a form and say, Hey, fill this out a survey. I get on the phone and they identify who they would like to participate in this process. And I get on the phone and I have a conversation with those people and I ask [00:15:00] them, a few questions.

And the first is, what does this person do really well? And then the next question is, what do they do that's getting in their way? And then I ask for suggestions. And it doesn't take long for these patterns to appear. And I go back to my coaching client and say, okay, here is the feedback in their words, in your stakeholders words.

And usually the response is this is not the first time I've heard this. I'm like, no, that's good. There's very, I've only had one situation where it was a complete surprise and it was no surprise that no matter what I did with this guy, nothing changed. And I knew that. And that's why I told his boss that I would only take him on for three months because I did not think he was going to do it.

Benefit. It's really about having somebody hold up the mirror because you [00:16:00] cannot see the back of your hair. I'm like this morning, I'm like, okay, how's it looking? Hopefully you're not going to have me stand up and turn around, but you just can't. And I think the first step is really finding out how you're being perceived because is nothing more than perception.

Patricia Ortega: Oh my gosh, I just love that you said that. I was just writing for something else and one of the things that came up is that you're really alluding to is you're unearthing the what's under perception, right? It's like an iceberg. And what we see, that's the perception, but below it are behaviors. Below the behavior is a thought, below the thought is the emotion, and you're helping them to find, what those thoughts and emotions are, those assumptions are, that then show up in how they present.

So what is it in your experience, what does it look like for someone to actually Change behavior because you're right. Not everyone is going to do it and it's more on the client than it is on the coach, right? They have to [00:17:00] be willing to go through this change to see themselves in the mirror, right?

But for you, let's say you have a client and let's say I'm wanting to work with you and I'm like, okay, I want to change this behavior. I know I have it. I'm willing to change. How does that happen?

Roberta Matuson: We have to work with your stakeholders. We have to work with the people around you because there could be a brand new you.

Okay. But if nobody else sees it or knows about it, what doesn't matter. So for example suppose that one of the areas that you're working on is not micromanaging, okay. Giving people autonomy. You're meeting with one of your employees and normally you'd be like, okay, let me see the data.

Let me see this. Let me see that blah, blah, blah. And As you're working towards giving people more autonomy, you say to some, to your person that, is working for you, Hey, did you happen to notice at this time, I didn't ask for all the documentation and they're like, yeah, that [00:18:00] felt so good. Yeah. I'm really trying.

So now we're trying. Now that person is noticing that, Oh, that's a change in behavior. So we have to bring our stakeholders along with us. So it's like. So not only are you going through this behavior change, but we're working on a little PR, a mini PR campaign for you inside the organization.

Patricia Ortega: Oh, that's brilliant. That is brilliant. And how have you seen it received? There's multiple facets here. There's a person who's working on the behavior change, right? There is the team PR information along the way. And then there's the leader who maybe first brought coaching. to the picture. How do you see it all wrapping up?

If I'm a client and I'm thinking, maybe I want to work with Roberta, right? How will I know, okay, this is nearing the end of my coaching engagement?

Roberta Matuson: People will be noticing and will be telling you, wow, like that was really cool that you did [00:19:00] that. It was really interesting. I started a coaching assignment with the head of, with the head of HR.

The CEO had brought me in to do this project and to coach this head of HR. And it was remarkable within like a month. The CEO was like reaching out to me going, wow, people are beginning to notice that her behavior is changing. But the reason why we were so successful is she really took to heart the fact that her boss said, we need to get you some help.

And she was open to making these changes unlike the other client that I told you about. So my whole thing before I will accept a client, I have to be sure that they want this more than I do.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah. It's crucial. I mean that nothing is going to change without someone's will, intention and commitment right to that process.

Roberta Matuson: Can't want it more than you do. Yeah, I'd love it if you could be less of a [00:20:00] micromanager and have a great team, but if you don't care I can't do anything with that.

Patricia Ortega: Absolutely. Oh my goodness. You and I could go on and on. And I love that you've shared not only how to manage up, how to manage your team, how to go in the first, one, three, nine months, right?

And get set the platform in order to make an impact. But you've also shared some important pieces about what it would be like to go into coaching. And I think that's so important because oftentimes. where we're not sure about what a situation looks like. We are unlikely to cross that boundary, right into the unknown.

And so now we know what it's like. I would love for you to share some of your biggest successes working with people.

Roberta Matuson: Before I do that, I just want to say something because I think it's really important. I think people have misconception. Coaches, they're not going to fix you.

That's not the goal. There's nothing wrong with you. Okay. Yes. Thank [00:21:00] you for that. You are who you are. We're just going to smooth out some edges. We're going to bring some matters to your attention so that you can, behave in a different manner. If your intention was never to be a jerk, Okay.

Let's see how we can, get you better PR here for the right reasons. So it's just really important not to be afraid of it. And I say this because I've had a coach, so it's not like I'm telling you, Oh, you should do this. Like I've had coaches throughout my career and it's made a huge difference.

My success stories are. I've coached people in major pharmaceutical companies who, are in fairly political environments. I guess I'm, that's nice. I'm saying it in a nice way. I've coached, CEOs of biotech companies. I've also coached new leaders, I do a lot of group coaching. So honestly, the only place that I did not have success is that one [00:22:00] person and I would going in and I just, I kept saying to his boss, I don't want to take your money. He's no please. And I should have listened to my gut, but I was like, okay.

Patricia Ortega: Yeah, it's difficult.

But the beauty of it is that if you are again, intentional, committed and willing, that's visible at the outskirt and, potential changes in behavior lead to changes in performance, lead to changes in relationships. I'm sure that you've gotten similar comments when you coach people and then they come back and say, you're not coaching me for my personal relationships.

You're not coaching me. For anything outside of leading my team, but my kids are telling me I'm happier, but my wife is telling me, right?

Roberta Matuson: I, and I tell them when I coach them, try this at home. Okay. If you want to I'll teach people how to use influence, right? And I'm like, try this tonight with your spouse.

See how that works. Or you're 11 year old, [00:23:00] you

Patricia Ortega: know, and it is, and it

Roberta Matuson: works.

Patricia Ortega: Influence and persuasion are a much more considerate way of, negotiating everyday things, right? They don't have to necessarily be highly political meetings and mergers and situation. It could just be something at home where you're trying to figure out, are we going to the soccer game or are we going to watch a movie?

Roberta Matuson: Who is taking the kid to the soccer game?

Patricia Ortega: Who's doing the driving? Gosh, Roberta, this has been so great, but I know we're running out of time, but I definitely do not want to wrap up our conversation without you sharing a little bit about the other books that you've written and the work that you do and how we can reach you.

Roberta Matuson: I I've got a lot of books. I've got evergreen talent. I've got talent magnetism. I've got, can we talk, which is a book about the seven principles of difficult conversations at work. I guess three additions of Suddenly in charge. The audio book will be coming out shortly for suddenly in [00:24:00] charge.

I was in the studio a couple of weeks ago for four days recording people can reach out to me at Matcheson consulting. com. They can follow me on LinkedIn or send me an invite. And if they mentioned the podcast in the invitation, I'll definitely accept it. Otherwise, I'm like, I don't know who you are.

And then follow me on X. So

Patricia Ortega: I love it. I'll include those links in the description or better. Thank you so much for having a chat with us today.

Roberta Matuson: My pleasure.

Patricia Ortega: All right, everyone. Thanks again for listening. Know that we love you. We're praying for you. We'll see you on the next one.

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